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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Come again?
    You say states are human constructs dependent on us, yet "us" includes the people with the clout.
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    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    You say states are human constructs dependent on us, yet "us" includes the people with the clout.
    I don't follow- if by "people with the clout" you mean our elected representatives what's your point?
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    all the remain campaigners were bullying Boris. They have no idea on what to do with immigration. I support leave who actually gave arguments
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    XcitingStuart
    sebby491


    The argument put forward by brexiters is that the EU is indemocratic because it prevents nation states from actingpirely in their own economic interest. This would apply to to the UK- for instance, Scotland during the 70s would have better served its national interest leaving the UK.

    (I support the UK staying together for the same reasons as I support the EU staying together).

    Even on a smaller level- unless you live in Whitby you did not elect our prime minister and you cannot get rid of him.

    The point is there is no objective polity: it depends on your own prejudices.

    I will say again. States are human constructs dependent on us and not vice versa.
    Wrong, the argument is we don't elect most of the EU, whether that's the law makers in the commission or over 90% of the parliament. Also you mean Witney and of course the country can remove the PM something we can't do with the 5 un-elected and unknown EU presidents.

    You are very cocky and ignorant and fail to understand even the most basic arguments. No point continuing in debate with people like yourself, you won't ever change your opinion regardless of the facts or when you are proven wrong. Have a nice day and if I didn't support free speech I would tell you to shut up.
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    So it appears Boris is still peddling the 350 million a week myth and claiming it would all go to the NHS otherwise, despite him having wanted to privatise the NHS.
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    I will be perfectly honest in admitting i didnt know who she was before the debate. I do now. I actually looked up her odds for next PM and saw they had slashed her from 50/1 to 40/1 so clearly a few others had the same idea!
    Leave should get her to take part in the BBC debate too. I thought she came across very well compared with the others. She seemed well prepared, able to answer questions and remained calm and authoritative. Leave should be pushing her and Gisela rather than the loons like Farage and Boris.
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    In my opinion it wasn't really a debate on issues, but rather a personal slanging match... In a non-biased view, the LEAVE 3 representatives held themselves better than the 3 REMAIN representatives. Especially Andrea Leadsom.
    I think the whole debate as a whole has become fictionalised with both sides attacking each-other on a personal level rather than focusing on the issues


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    (Original post by sebby491)
    Wrong, the argument is we don't elect most of the EU,
    There's my point. Tour argument is reliant upon what you define as your people. It's subjective and is no more valid than me saying we as Europeans elect the EU.

    whether that's the law makers in the commission or over 90% of the parliament.
    We the people of Europe do. (See it's an argument over where you define the political space!)

    Also you mean Witney and of course the country can remove the PM something we can't do with the 5 un-elected and unknown EU presidents.
    Typo. The Presidents are elected and can be known, unless one wishes to be ignorant. Juncker and Tusk are pretty well known.

    You are very cocky and ignorant and fail to understand even the most basic arguments. No point continuing in debate with people like yourself, you won't ever change your opinion regardless of the facts or when you are proven wrong. Have a nice day and if I didn't support free speech I would tell you to shut up.
    you forgot to add 'fact' at the end of that.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    I don't follow- if by "people with the clout" you mean our elected representatives what's your point?
    It means it's also dependent on them.

    You say states are human constructs are dependent on us; not the reverse. fair point.

    But the states are dependent on some people who don't want that to be the case.

    For it to be dependent on us, and not the reverse, we need a unified "us".

    (Kinda hard to rationalise / put into words.)
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    So it appears Boris is still peddling the 350 million a week myth and claiming it would all go to the NHS otherwise, despite him having wanted to privatise the NHS.
    If it was £168 million/week what are your thoughts then? (That's considering rebate and budget spent on us.)
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    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    If it was £168 million/week what are your thoughts then? (That's considering rebate and budget spent on us.)
    At least use the correct figure. It's so dishnonest of the leave campaign to peso twist with £350 million.
    I still think we get a lot more out the the EU though. You can't always measure the effects on monetary value, eg Europol.

    The problem is we all know johnson and gove dislike the NHS and want it privatised to to say we would spend all that money on the NHS is frankly laughable.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    At least use the correct figure. It's so dishnonest of the leave campaign to peso twist with £350 million.
    I still think we get a lot more out the the EU though. You can't always measure the effects on monetary value, eg Europol.

    The problem is we all know johnson and gove dislike the NHS and want it privatised to to say we would spend all that money on the NHS is frankly laughable.
    In which the remain camp displays their contempt for the average voter

    They've made these promises about relieving the NHS very pubicly so they're politically bound to follow through with them if they ever want reelection. Same will never be true for the EU.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    In which the remain camp displays their contempt for the average voter

    They've made these promises about relieving the NHS very pubicly so they're politically bound to follow through with them if they ever want reelection. Same will never be true for the EU.
    Or we are just realistic. Excuse me for not trusting politicians.
    Johnson has never done anything that hasn't been for his own benefit. He's the slimiest politician out there. Makes Cameron look honest and integral.

    Johnson had always been pro EU, until he realized going against it would be best for his leadership ambitions. He cares nothing for the people he claims he cares about. He's always wanted to privatize the NHS, yet suddenly when it comes to the EU he decides he loves the NHS.


    'Political blindness' is nowhere near as strong as you think it is. You're incredibly naive.
    The tories promised no top down reorganizations of the NHS in 2010, they also promised to abolish the deficit by 2015. They didn't achieve either yet still got elected.
    How anyone could like Johnson or believe himis worrying. He's made Cameron and Osborne look reasonable, and that takes some doing.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Or we are just realistic. Excuse me for not trusting politicians.
    Johnson has never done anything that hasn't been for his own benefit. He's the slimiest politician out there. Makes Cameron look honest and integral.

    Johnson had always been pro EU, until he realized going against it would be best for his leadership ambitions. He cares nothing for the people he claims he cares about. He's always wanted to privatize the NHS, yet suddenly when it comes to the EU he decides he loves the NHS.


    'Political blindness' is nowhere near as strong as you think it is. You're incredibly naive.
    The tories promised no top down reorganizations of the NHS in 2010, they also promised to abolish the deficit by 2015. They didn't achieve either yet still got elected.
    How anyone could like Johnson or believe himis worrying. He's made Cameron and Osborne look reasonable, and that takes some doing.
    Is this all the remain argument is boiling down to in the last few days of the referendum? "Boris is silly."? Don't be surprised when we leave.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Is this all the remain argument is boiling down to in the last few days of the referendum? "Boris is silly."? Don't be surprised when we leave.
    No of course not. It's just embarassing that people like you have been swept off your feet by the likes of boris and Farage.
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    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    It means it's also dependent on them.

    You say states are human constructs are dependent on us; not the reverse. fair point.

    But the states are dependent on some people who don't want that to be the case.

    For it to be dependent on us, and not the reverse, we need a unified "us".

    (Kinda hard to rationalise / put into words.)
    Are you saying that in order for states to survive they need people who will put the state construct first instead of the tangible needs of the people?

    If so, that's my point. States should serve the interests of humanity and should be discarded when that is no longer the case.
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    (Original post by Zargabaath)
    Really? I'm not even a Brexiter and I thought Farage upstaged Cameron
    Opinions ay! I just thought he was very poor...especially by his standards.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Or we are just realistic. Excuse me for not trusting politicians.
    Johnson has never done anything that hasn't been for his own benefit. He's the slimiest politician out there. Makes Cameron look honest and integral.

    Johnson had always been pro EU, until he realized going against it would be best for his leadership ambitions. He cares nothing for the people he claims he cares about. He's always wanted to privatize the NHS, yet suddenly when it comes to the EU he decides he loves the NHS.

    To be fair to leave voters that doesn't mean they will privatise the NHS. We are currently ran by people who have big ideological issues with the concept of the NHS yet it still exists. I imagine ti would be the same if someone like Boris were priminister. It would just be the usual (slow chipping away at it without people noticing) we have now.
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    This topic about the NHS and that it might be bought by another corporation keeps getting brought up. I need to find out some information before I carry on:

    How much per year does the NHS cost the taxpayer?
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/583...-going-to-rise
    http://www.theguardian.com/society/n...i-cost-the-nhs

    2 different figures and I would say they are both high.. I would agree that for each person it costs approx £1000 per year in our tax money? Is this a fair estimate?

    So even this "free" NHS actually costs us almost £100 per month..

    Surely if it was privatized.. HUGE changes to the business model would change with Management Salaries to start with.. and many other financial savings, although the new owners would want to make a profit of course, so this might balance this out!

    I would be happy to have my taxes reduced by £100 per month and pay this into an Insurance Card (CameronCare) scheme.. in order to be covered..

    I have used the Emergency services 1 time in the last 15 years.. and I understand others use it more or less even! So in that respect I would be HAPPY to put £100 per month into a EMERGENCY funds account... and pay for my treatment! I would have approx £15,000 in there minus my 1 hour treatment for a small head injury.. (i could have claimed on insurance to be fair and got £1000 in damages but that's another story )
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    (Original post by ATW1)
    I would be amazed and highly suspicious if Britain votes Remain after this annihilation. Every single person who watched it would have to be crazy or incredibly stubborn and ignorant (more likely) to still consider voting to Remain.
    I totally agree with you... but I think the public will get scared and vote remain.

    Will you be voting in or out?
 
 
 
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