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Quitting the EU won't solve our problems, says Boris Johnson Watch

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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    In the short term i agree. In the long term however there is the potential for so much more however.
    So true-you will not believe how to so many remainers, even three years more Tory government, is the long term. It's shocking. That says only fear and lack of vision to me. It's essentially defeatism, even if they do not perceive it this way. So devoid of historical perspective, and future perspective, which by the way are more strongly linked than any of them realise.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    The difference between you and i is that i'm prepared to take what i deem an intelligent risk, while you fear the unknown. There's nothing wrong with your view but the EU debate has forced me to conclude that i believe we will be fine out of the EU.
    Hmm. As someone who is employed in an area which benefits from our EU membership, with bills to pay, family to support and generally wanting to have a good standard of life in a country with a decent economy.... I think I'll say no to jumping feet first into the unknown.
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    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    Hmm. As someone who is employed in an area which benefits from our EU membership, with bills to pay, family to support and generally wanting to have a good standard of life in a country with a decent economy.... I think I'll say no to jumping feet first into the unknown.
    I work in retail at a US multinational so while i won't feel the impact of deferred investment directly i will feel it through lower hiring hiring intentions dampening consumer demand so i'm not immune and on top of that, i come from a household in the lowest decile.

    I just tend to think that since i managed to gain employment in the financial crisis, was relatively unaffected by the stall of 11/12, i'm likely to survive what is probably going to be more of a stall than a massive crash. Let's remember that the treasury's own worst case scenario only suggests that growth will be -0.7/-0.8 in 2017 and 2018. That's the shallowest recession on record.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Most of the economic papers i've seen suggest that the ill effects will be largely short term as a result of the unknown and that long run growth will be minimally affected. The treasury's own worst case scenario suggests this. The economy has also cooled over the past year anyway.
    Agreed

    (Original post by Axion)
    To be honest, it's not hard to perceive the real 'worst case scenario', being a systematic break-up of the EU over the next 5-10 years, which undoubtedly would hit almost the entire European economy, including the UK. Imagine several major European economies like Italy, then voting to leave and having to sign international trading relationships.

    China is hardly running at breakneck speed, the European finances are pretty dire, and existing growth in many developed economies is still weak. It's not hard to perceive that there could be far more severe implications from a Brexit. I don't think that scenario is farfetched either - many other countries have said they would potentially re-examine EU membership, and the state of European finances are very real.

    Naturally this is not something that anyone can really model, but weren't the last major crises also down to events that few people expected could happen? At this point in time, I think the uncertainty it could cause is potentially off the scale.
    I do believe there will be a economic shock within the EU which will indirectly affect us. As we are make one of the largest contributions to the EU. However, the affect on us will not be too bad (might even lead to cheaper imports if the pound keeps growing and the euro declines).

    (Original post by Rakas21)
    I'll copy my post above.. That won't happen. I neither agree nor endorse this view.

    While it's certainly possible (probable even) that a handful of states will not take the plunge in Europe, i think that a lot of people in the UK don't really understand the mentality of these Arab and Eastern European states that wish to join it either and that's why the EU is consistently underestimated. It's a flawed entity but it will still be around as a great ally of ours come 2050.

    And add..

    Ireland and Spain are growing faster than the UK (9% and 3%), Of the states you've listed only in France and Italy is the skeptic movement anywhere near strong enough to be a threat.
    We shall see what happens, but the EU will be a much reduced state as more and more states either default and go back to their own currency or pull out of the EU like we have done. Of course, the states that are benefiting being in the EU will stay, but the country's that are forking out the money will most likely not.

    Alot will be watch us to see how we do. I don't buy your euroskeptic argument that "because there are a low percentage of euroskeptics it isn't a threat". The skeptic movement is growing very quickly across some EU member states (as it did with us).
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    The remain camp are so desperate, but don't worry guys because the vast majority of the UK public will vote OUT
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    (Original post by Twinpeaks)
    I just don't understand why people feel leaving is worth the risk. To jeapordise our strengthening economy, to go against the warnings of a majority of reputable economists all for a non-palpable notion of control just seems irrational to me.
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    (Original post by mrITguy)
    Alot will be watch us to see how we do. I don't buy your euroskeptic argument that "because there are a low percentage of euroskeptics it isn't a threat". The skeptic movement is growing very quickly across some EU member states (as it did with us).
    Yep, just to add on to this, 80% of the Dutch want us to leave, 88% want their own referendum. Similar figures in Denmark and Czechia.

    The peoples of Europe want us to leave, to trigger their own referendums and grant them the freedom's we're about to enjoy. Leaving would be an act of European brotherhood.
    The bureaucrats want us to stay.

    Who will you answer?
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    (Original post by EuanF)

    The irony is that only those from a comfortable material position would take such an attitude. It's not a question of "wealth" for most, it's a question of simply getting by. The wealthy, those who have never faced hard times, mounting debts, a mortgage which can barely be paid, can contemplate a gamble for a vein fight for "freedom". The rest cannot afford the risk.

    We as individuals won't feel any effects of the freedom those voting to leave strive for. They won't be directly experienced.
    But an adverse impact on the economy will be directly experienced.


    People get so wrapped up in ideology, you just need to think logically. Risks versus benefits.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    - Boris Johnson, 2014

    Lmao he changed his tune quickly when he saw an opportunity to become PM.

    How stupid do you have to be to listen to anything these people say????

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...s-Johnson.html
    This!!!
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    (Original post by Luke Kostanjsek)
    You know this is probably the single biggest reason that the Leave campaign has caught up and overtaken Remain in the polls? All Remain seems to be doing currently is trying to pillor Boris Johnson. The debate on ITV summed it up. The Leave campaign - whether you agree with their argument or not - set out their case for why we should vote to leave the EU, whereas the Remainers did little other than launch a very personal attack on Johnson. And it's been rife throughout the campaign; the nastiness was kicked off when Cameron made a joke about Boris Jonson's divorce in the House of Commons if I recall correctly.

    But it's not helping their case. It makes it look like they're afraid of the Leave campaign and can't win the argument on merit, so they're trying to discredit the proponents of Brexit instead. And what's more, turning this referendum into a vote on personalities is daft, cause Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage (and Corbyn, who we all know is really in favour of leaving) are held in infinitely higher regard than Cameron, Osborne and Blair. The Remain campaign has absolutely shot itself in the foot; if we do leave, they'll only have themselves to blame.
    It's unfortunate that the remain campaign don't have millions to spend on advertising, and aren't willing to compromise their principles to blatantly lie, but this just isn't true. I keep seeing videos and Facebook posts from Britain Stronger in Europe with ACTUAL FACTS. Vote Leave and their supporters have mainly been spreading lies to defame the other side ("Cameron said WW3..." no he didn't), but nobody seems to pick up on that. Prominent figures on both sides are equally bad, but the remain campaign as a whole has stuck to trying to get the facts out. People just don't seem to notice/care when it's Vote Leave doing the lying and slandering.

    There's also a pretty key difference. Nobody from Remain is saying "David Cameron said we need to do this", they're arguing with facts. But the entire Leave argument seems to be "Boris said this", "Farage said that". I wouldn't trust David Cameron, but I'm not trusting him and I'm not paying attention to anything he says. People are trusting Boris Johnson and using what he says to argue that we should leave.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    It's unfortunate that the remain campaign don't have millions to spend on advertising
    erm

    did we all forget the nine ****ing million pounds the government spent on leaflets?

    (Original post by JordanL_)
    But the entire Leave argument seems to be "Boris said this", "Farage said that".
    I think you mean the entire Remain argument seems to be that. Didn't you just make a thread about "Boris said this."?
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    In his book 'Politics', David Runciman says that in his time at Eton, he knew of two boys who wanted to be Prime Minister: David Cameron and Boris Johnson.

    Johnson has made a huge political blunder in fronting the Leave campaign. He has alienated many of the voters who were previously enamoured by him. Rather than being the guy who makes politics cool and fun, he is now guilty of dolchstoss and snaking.
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    (Original post by IFoundWonderland)
    In his book 'Politics', David Runciman says that in his time at Eton, he knew of two boys who wanted to be Prime Minister: David Cameron and Boris Johnson.

    Johnson has made a huge political blunder in fronting the Leave campaign. He has alienated many of the voters who were previously enamoured by him. Rather than being the guy who makes politics cool and fun, he is now guilty of dolchstoss and snaking.
    So what if Boris Johnson wants to be prime minister? Maybe he can do a better job than David Cameron?
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    So what if Boris Johnson wants to be prime minister? Maybe he can do a better job than David Cameron?
    I don't know if you read my quote? I was not criticising his aspirations; merely his agenda.
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    (Original post by ckfeister)
    *Waits for brexiters to try and defend him*
    Just because we have reached the same conclusion as another on a binary question doesn't mean we love them as a person or have the same motives. The kind of people I do like to listen to are the head of Britain's biggest manufacturer (JCB) and Dennis Skinner (a legend!)
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    (Original post by IFoundWonderland)
    I don't know if you read my quote? I was not criticising his aspirations; merely his agenda.
    Ok
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    (Original post by james813)
    Just because we have reached the same conclusion as another on a binary question doesn't mean we love them as a person or have the same motives. The kind of people I do like to listen to are the head of Britain's biggest manufacturer (JCB) and Dennis Skinner (a legend!)
    rofl I do like seeing Dennis Skinner comments too, always true and hillarious.
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    So what if Boris Johnson wants to be prime minister? Maybe he can do a better job than David Cameron?
    It's not the fact that he wants to be prime minister. It is that he has competing interests and we have seen how easily he changed his tone just to persuade the audience. The ends of being PM and exiting the EU justify all means for him.

    Boris Johnson cannot be trusted.

    David Cameron, for all his flaws, is consistent. He's not swerving left and right to please everybody and get what he wants.

    Many of the people who would've backed Boris as PM are not anymore because he wants to leave the EU. The way he is handling that and pandering to both sides is dishonest and he does it with disgusting ease.
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    (Original post by ib_hopeful)
    It's not the fact that he wants to be prime minister. It is that he has competing interests and we have seen how easily he changed his tone just to persuade the audience. The ends of being PM and exiting the EU justify all means for him.

    Boris Johnson cannot be trusted.

    David Cameron, for all his flaws, is consistent. He's not swerving left and right to please everybody and get what he wants.

    Many of the people who would've backed him as PM are not anymore because he wants to leave the EU. The way he is handling that and pandering to both sides is dishonest and he does it with disgusting ease.
    Yep. I despise David Cameron, and at first I thought he was doing the remain campaign more harm than good, but he's surprised me. He seems to be actually sticking to his principles and trying to make a case based on facts. Boris doesn't even seem to be making any particular effort to hide his blatant power grabbing, but people still lap it up. Being a politician must be so easy in this country :rolleyes:

    I'd rather have the Tories out altogether, but I've always thought he's far better than any of the alternatives. I think he's out after the referendum regardless of the result, so things can only get worse. :bawling:
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Err, you have not even understood what he's saying. Wow, we are not voting for utopianism, shocker. Do you think anyone voting Brexit is voting for an instant 'solution to all our problems'?
    He's talking about what has been wrong with our political culture for so long, which is added to, not helped by the EU. The answer is not to give up on our political system which has reached a low, all within the EU, and not just to do with Westminster, it's happened globally. He's essentially saying that the stifling of our options and debate and mentality is linked to membership, of course it's not totally caused by it, we have intrinsic problems. However the only way to deal with these intrinsic problems is through our own independent democracy, another layer of bureaucrats and an institution that takes awy our democracy is seen as the antidote, or a panacea, by remain-they are totally wrong, it just allows the worst of power abuses within this country, while trading away more power to the unaccountable and adding another layer of what currently callas itself democracy.

    I think you have wilfully misrepresented that and selectively quoted. Why not just honestly make the pro-EU case? Isn't there one of enough substance?

    I see your point. But are we capable of sorting out our own problems as a country? Is the EU then, just a crutch we lean on for support? Surely then, the whole system is at fault. How do you fix the intrinsic problems we have as a people? It would take years of discussion and debate to curb the bureacracy. The whole point of leaving the eu is in the name of 'independence'. Is that just wishful thinking or could we survive on our own? Looking back through history, isolationistic thinking has never been the best option. What's the alternative to the eu? In terms of a model, trade links, agreements etc.

    Pardon me if I'm a bit slow or behind in the discussion. I'm new to this whole brexit concept.

    I find jumping into matters of the unknown to be interesting. Of course its a major risk to leave the EU. But what would be the major reasons for doing so? How would it affect me as a home university student, paying 9000 a year working part time to help pay for my travel costs? We're all just small cogs in the bigger machine. Turning away.

    Lyrnrd skynrd. Big wheels keep on turning. Fantastic song. I love red necks.
 
 
 
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