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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    "Everyone I disagree with is biased so the only evidence you can trust is the evidence I give you"

    Conveniently, all of the experts disagree with you which gives you a very good excuse to disregard all of the evidence that actually matters.
    Oh come on, the economic argument put out by Remain is suspect at best. I don't know if you've looked at the reports that have come out in detail, but the assumptions that are being used for these models are ludicrous. The basis for all the models being touted by Remain are assuming that we would have no trade deal, with anyone at all, in place until at least 2023 and that we would retain all the tariffs on foreign goods that the EU currently demands. Further, they all predict growth within the other EU states far in excess of what we currently see, without any real justification as to why. I think you'll agree that all these assumptions are not only groundless, but also pessimistic in the extreme.

    And that's before you get to the elephant in the room economically; Greece. Whilst I agree that short-term our economy will take something of a dip if we leave, to make any claims about our mid or long-term economic wellbeing in the EU you'd have to set out the means by which the Greek debt crisis is going to be resolved. And given as the IMF has just downgraded that debt, essentially saying that it does not believe the debt can ever be repaid, Greece's - and by extension the whole eurozone's - outlook is decidedly grim.

    In the mid and long term, there is far more economic risk in staying. No one knows how the Greek debt will resolve, no one knows how the migrant crisis will resolve and no one knows how hard the EU is gonna push for the fiscal and political union its leaders so desire. Extremist, left and right wing populist parties are on the rise and the whole eurozone is trapped in a stagflationary cycle. And no one has even suggested how any of these problems are to be resolved.

    Also, the argument that lots of experts think we should stay, so we should stay, is only reasonable if those experts are objective. Given as the Treasury is a government department, they're gonna be pretty biased. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand why our staying in the EU would serve the IMF and the US well; their support for Remain is entirely motivated by self-interest rather than a burning desire to help the British public.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Dictatorship lmao.

    It's really telling how the Leave campaign need to invent this narrative of a big scary EU that we need to battle. These people are living in a fantasy world where they're heroic freedom warriors. Pathetic.
    What is the EU if not an anti-democratic establishment of dictatorship?

    The only pathetic thing here is that you and other ignorant individuals are content with foreign elitists, fueled by the interests of corporate lobbyists, holding sway over the sovereignty of Britain.
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    (Original post by Withengar)
    Who in their right conscience raises this bunch of right-wing bigots?
    It's funny how you automatically (and ignorantly) make an assumption that all people from the Leave campaign are right-wing. Wait what? There are left-wing Leave campaigners :eek:

    One example, Labour Leave. Just proved you wrong sir
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    XcitingStuart is absolutely ridiculous. Probably the biggest leave nut on here :lol:
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    (Original post by TheLittlestElf)
    XcitingStuart is absolutely ridiculous. Probably the biggest leave nut on here :lol:
    Okay, can you at least explain your claim? You feel you have the right to give up my democratic influence, or you're in denial, or you're ignorant, but you have no right to do that on my behalf.

    I've given you an economic case. If you want you can check two of my recent threads, though those aren't the updated and foolproof versions, and the formatting is horrible.

    You are also naïve enough to also think no ulterior motives can be at play here.

    And yes, I acknowledge my comparison was made on anger and an emotional response, but that isn't what truly matters this coming referendum and the following results now, is it?

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    (Original post by Luke Kostanjsek)
    Oh come on, the economic argument put out by Remain is suspect at best. I don't know if you've looked at the reports that have come out in detail, but the assumptions that are being used for these models are ludicrous. The basis for all the models being touted by Remain are assuming that we would have no trade deal, with anyone at all, in place until at least 2023 and that we would retain all the tariffs on foreign goods that the EU currently demands. Further, they all predict growth within the other EU states far in excess of what we currently see, without any real justification as to why. I think you'll agree that all these assumptions are not only groundless, but also pessimistic in the extreme.

    And that's before you get to the elephant in the room economically; Greece. Whilst I agree that short-term our economy will take something of a dip if we leave, to make any claims about our mid or long-term economic wellbeing in the EU you'd have to set out the means by which the Greek debt crisis is going to be resolved. And given as the IMF has just downgraded that debt, essentially saying that it does not believe the debt can ever be repaid, Greece's - and by extension the whole eurozone's - outlook is decidedly grim.

    In the mid and long term, there is far more economic risk in staying. No one knows how the Greek debt will resolve, no one knows how the migrant crisis will resolve and no one knows how hard the EU is gonna push for the fiscal and political union its leaders so desire. Extremist, left and right wing populist parties are on the rise and the whole eurozone is trapped in a stagflationary cycle. And no one has even suggested how any of these problems are to be resolved.

    Also, the argument that lots of experts think we should stay, so we should stay, is only reasonable if those experts are objective. Given as the Treasury is a government department, they're gonna be pretty biased. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand why our staying in the EU would serve the IMF and the US well; their support for Remain is entirely motivated by self-interest rather than a burning desire to help the British public.
    I have heard some extremely intelligent economists talking about Brexit. I am not an economist so the next best thing is for me to listen to the expert consensus, and that is overwhelmingly in favour of supporting remaining in the EU. They are not idiots, I have faith that they've got a good reason to support what they're saying. Certainly a more credible basis than whatever the Brexit campaign decides they're going to say at a particular moment, which isn't supported by any experts.
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    (Original post by MedArsey)
    Typical British people too scared to stand up for themselves and let their voices be heard, its time to change, its time to leave.
    More evidence that Brexiters have no respect for the British people.

    What a ridiculous way to try and sway people's opinions.
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    this is a bit irrelevant to this post hehe but to the current situation will it affect international students studying in UK?
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    I have heard some extremely intelligent economists talking about Brexit. I am not an economist so the next best thing is for me to listen to the expert consensus, and that is overwhelmingly in favour of supporting remaining in the EU. They are not idiots, I have faith that they've got a good reason to support what they're saying. Certainly a more credible basis than whatever the Brexit campaign decides they're going to say at a particular moment, which isn't supported by any experts.
    There are also plenty of competent economists in favour of Brexit.

    http://www.economistsforbrexit.co.uk/


    I'd be a good idea to find some impartial economists to assess the pros and cons of leaving or staying in the EU.

    Your point is void.
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    (Original post by The Roast)
    There are also plenty of competent economists in favour of Brexit.

    http://www.economistsforbrexit.co.uk/


    I'd be a good idea to find some impartial economists to assess the pros and cons of leaving or staying in the EU.

    Your point is void.
    That website lists eight people. You can find eight seemingly competent scientists who think climate change is a scam, that doesn't mean they're worth taking seriously. The overwhelming majority of economists think that leaving the EU would be a very bad decision economically so I'm going to listen to them, rather than a tiny minority. I don't understand why you think most economists somehow have a bias preventing them from saying that leaving the EU would be good if that was indeed the case.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    That website lists eight people. You can find eight seemingly competent scientists who think climate change is a scam, that doesn't mean they're worth taking seriously. The overwhelming majority of economists think that leaving the EU would be a very bad decision economically so I'm going to listen to them, rather than a tiny minority.

    Suit yourself.
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    (Original post by The Roast)
    Suit yourself.
    So I'm guessing you don't have an actual justification for why you think these people are worth listening to over the consensus?
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    (Original post by The Roast)
    There are also plenty of competent economists in favour of Brexit.

    http://www.economistsforbrexit.co.uk/


    I'd be a good idea to find some impartial economists to assess the pros and cons of leaving or staying in the EU.

    Your point is void.
    8???? LOL. Of course there are going to be ad-hoc individual economists who support Brexit.

    Try stacking them together against the IMF, OECD, and the tens, if not 100+, in economists and credible institutions on the other side.
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    Leaving the EU can change everything we know about the UK, we simply can't act all superior thinking the EU revolves arounds us because it doesn't. It's not being weak it's about being wise

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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    That website lists eight people. You can find eight seemingly competent scientists who think climate change is a scam, that doesn't mean they're worth taking seriously. The overwhelming majority of economists think that leaving the EU would be a very bad decision economically so I'm going to listen to them, rather than a tiny minority. I don't understand why you think most economists somehow have a bias preventing them from saying that leaving the EU would be good if that was indeed the case.
    I took Economics at University, and if there is two things I know, it's that you should tend to err on the side of caution in times of economic weakness, and also that long-term forecasting is very tricky.

    1. We are in times of weakness. Economic growth forecasts keep getting revised down. Why cause a short-term shock to rock the boat?

    2. The only thing that is certain - it's already being seen with cash/capital flows in/out of the UK - is that an exit will create a short-term shock, at a minimum. There is zero reason why a Brexit would realistically create an increase in near-term investment, but every reason to see why it would lead to a cut.

    In light of the reality, the ONLY thing that is certain, economically, is that we will have, at best, a 1-2 year period of economic uncertainty whilst any trade negotiations are sorted, not restricted to decreased investment, an erratic exchange rate etc: Agree with your standpoint.
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    The EU is the only power keeping the Tory government in check. If that was to go then the Tories could do whatever they want including stripping away some of our rights. We could still have another referendum down the line with a government that will actually protect us, until then i would vote to remain.
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    (Original post by Zakriah)
    The EU is the only power keeping the Tory government in check. If that was to go then the Tories could do whatever they want including stripping away some of our rights. We could still have another referendum down the line with a government that will actually protect us, until then i would vote to remain.
    We can unelect the Tories in 2020. We can never unelect the EU. What will you do when parties like UKIP, Golden Dawn, Front Nationale, Alternativ fur Deutschland etc become the European Parliament and Commission? Don't think that it's unlikely, after all, we ourselves elected a majority UKIP set of MEPs.

    There will be no other referendum. At all. Not for a solid 50 years - at best.

    Don't spite thousands of years of democracy because you're worried about the Tories. They're only here for another four years, and there's a good chance the party could fracture as a result of this referendum, anyway.

    You should never have to be afraid of your government. Firstly, they have to do the things promised in this referendum - boost NHS funding etc, otherwise they will never get reelected. Secondly - once we leave the EU, we have influence over our government. We can protest! We can petition! We can do any number of things to make our voices heard. Something sorely lacking in the EU, and something you'll regret when it becomes even further right.

    I wholly implore you to reconsider your stance. Come on over, we have cookies
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    I really can't wait to see how this plays out, and the 'out/leave' narrow minded people fall flat on their faces.


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    (Original post by Trill)
    I really can't wait to see how this plays out, and the 'out/leave' narrow minded people fall flat on their faces.


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    Can you please actually debate for your claim, instead of making insults upon insults with conviction?

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    i'm voting out as my business doesn't need the eu
    leaving will likely make better trade connections with the us and that's what i need
 
 
 
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