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This is a challenge to all remain voters (and undecideds). Watch

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    (Original post by EuanF)
    So you didn't actually watch the video, did you?
    There's more to the EU than just "omg we dont get a say" theres a whole economic side to things. You can't ignore it like that video does because then you're not getting a full picture.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    Exactly, the British MEP's vote in line with their party's parliamentary grouping not as a block so the idea that "we" are always outvoted in nonsensical.
    It's effectively just nationalist propaganda from the Brexit campaign
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Thanks for tagging.
    How are your folks in Bangladesh doing?

    Anyway. Toby, Toby, Toby....

    If anyone like me can't be bothered to watch the vid, Mr Young (of The Spectator) has kindly provided a full transcript:
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    TOBY YOUNG: I’ve made a short film with my friend Roger Bowles about why I’ll be voting Leave on 23 June and why I think you should, too. We’ve focused exclusively on the sovereignty argument, which we think is the most persuasive one. If you’re on the same side as us, please share this with as many people as possible.

    We’ve called it ‘Brexit: Facts Not Fear’ because we think it’s important that people should be acquainted with as many facts as possible when they cast their vote. Below is a transcript of the film, with links corroborating the facts referred to.

    Hi. I’m Toby Young, I’m an associate editor of the Spectator. The British public have been crying out for facts in the Brexit debate so they can make an informed choice about whether to leave or remain in the European Union. So I want to give you some facts about what’s happened to British sovereignty since we joined what was then called the European Economic Community in 1973.

    This room is where we keep the Spectator’s archives dating back to 1828 and I recently helped put together an anthology of material than appeared in the magazine in the run up to the first European referendum in 1975. The Spectator was one of only two publications to campaign for a Leave vote at the time, the other being the Morning Star.

    In the official government pamphlet urging us to vote ‘Yes’ in 1975, the British people were given a guarantee that no law could be imposed on them without the consent of their elected representatives. ‘No important new policy can be decided in Brussels or anywhere else without the consent of a British Minister answerable to a British Government and British Parliament… The Minister representing Britain can veto any proposal for a new law or new tax if he considers it to be against British interests.’ That ‘veto’ turned out to be a figment of the government’s imagination.

    Even back in 1973 when we first joined the EEC we didn’t have a veto over every new law proposed in Brussels. Some laws required a unanimous vote of the Council of the European Union, meaning any member state could veto them. Others could be passed by a majority vote. The 1975 government pamphlet urging us to vote ‘Yes’ tried to gloss over this inconvenient fact by using the weasel word ‘important’ – ‘No important new policy can be decided in Brussels’. But each time more countries join the European Union and another treaty is passed – each one bringing us closer to a United States of Europe – the number of laws deemed ‘important’ enough to require a unanimous vote gets smaller and smaller.

    For instance, before the Treaty of Lisbon was passed in 2007, each member state had a veto over the EU’s common defence policy. Today, that can be decided by a majority vote. As a result of the Treaty of Lisbon, Britain lost its veto in over 40 policy areas. Defenders of the EU will tell you that Britain can still block EU laws, even if we can no longer veto them. Surely, if we oppose a particular measure, we can assemble a coalition of like-minded countries to join with us to defeat it?

    In fact, finding other European countries willing to ally themselves with Britain has proved difficult. In the past 20 years, there have been 72 occasions when Britain has opposed a particular measure on the Council of the European Union. On all 72 occasions, we have been outvoted by the other member states. When it comes to the sovereignty of the British Parliament, the 1975 government pamphlet got it back to front.

    While Britain can’t veto all new laws or new taxes made by the European Union, the European Union can veto laws and taxes made in Britain. For instance, in 1983 the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg ruled that the UK’s low duty on beer, as proposed by Nigel Lawson in his 1981 budget, was contrary to Article 95, paragraph two, of the Treaty of Rome. The British government had no choice but to put up the price of beer. No wonder the former Conservative Chancellor now believes Britain would be better off outside the EU.

    This is one of countless times the British government has been overruled by the European Court. Just last year, the Court prevented the government from following through on its plan to freeze VAT on energy saving equipment at five per cent. Since 1973, the UK has lost 101 cases in the European Court and won only 30. That’s a failure rate of 77%.

    Okay, say the defenders of the EU. But only a tiny percentage of Britain’s laws are made in Brussels. According to David Cameron, only 14%. Nick Clegg puts the figure at 7%. In fact, the percentage of Britain’s laws made in Brussels is 59%. That’s right, 59%. Don’t take my word for it. That was the conclusion of Jeremy Paxman in a recent BBC documentary. So for every five new laws imposed on the British people, three originate in Brussels.

    And who makes these laws? If they were made by the European Parliament, in much the same way that our laws used to be made by our Parliament, that would at least give us some say, even if the British people only elect 73 out of a total of 751 MEPs.

    But EU laws aren’t made by the European Parliament. Nor are they made by the Council of the European Union. In the EU, laws are made by a select group of 28 officials known as the European Commissioners. Did the people of Europe elect these eurocrats? No. Can the people of Europe kick them out if they do a bad job? No.

    All 28 of them are political appointees – cronies of Europe’s political elite. European Commissioners aren’t just un-elected; in many cases, they’re people who’ve just lost elections. In Britain’s case, one of our best-known commissioners – Neil Kinnock – was appointed after the party he led had been rejected not once, but twice by the British electorate. This isn’t merely un-democratic; that’s anti-democratic.

    Once laws have been proposed by these un-elected officials, the European Parliament, like the Council of the European Union, can only reject, amend or ratify them and, once passed, there’s literally no mechanism to repeal them. It’s not a proper Parliament at all. It has even less power than the House of Lords. There is simply no way the people of Europe can force their representative to get rid of a bad law.

    Today, the government is telling us exactly the same stories it told us in 1975. In the pro-EU leaflet produced at a cost of £9 million to the British taxpayer, the government claimed that Britain had a ‘special status’ in the EU and that our continuing membership would preserve our role as a ‘leading force in the world’. ‘Our EU membership magnifies the UK’s ability to get its way on the issues it cares about.’

    Again and again, we’re told by the Remainers that if we stay in the European Union, we can lead the European Union. But how can one country lead an organization when it can be outvoted in by 27 votes to one? Remember, on the 72 occasions Britain has opposed new EU laws and regulations it’s been defeated 72 times. Is that leading? In the European Court of Justice, we’ve lost 101 times and won only 30 times. That’s a failure rate of 77%.

    Since David Cameron became Prime Minister, we’ve lost 80% of the cases we’ve brought before the ECJ. Is that leading? And if we vote to Remain in the EU, we’ll have even less influence than we do now. Earlier this year, the Prime Minister claimed he been able to secure a red card for Britain as part of his renegotiation. If you think that means a veto, think again.

    By ‘red card’, Cameron doesn’t mean the UK will be able to unilaterally veto any more EU laws than it can at present. No, under this new proposal we can only object to a piece of EU legislation if we can persuade the national parliaments of 14 other member states to object to it as well. And we’d only have a few weeks to assemble this coalition.

    Just how effective is this ‘red card’ likely to be?

    Here’s William Hague, ex-Foreign Secretary, dismissing this proposal as laughable when it was first made in 2008: ‘…even if the European Commission proposed the slaughter of the first-born it would be difficult to achieve such a remarkable conjunction of parliamentary votes.

    ’Not only is this ‘red card’ useless, but in order to win this ‘concession’ Cameron had to surrender one of Britain’s few remaining veto powers – the right to give or withhold our consent to future EU treaties that convert the Eurozone bloc into a European superstate.

    At present, 19 of the 28 member states are members of the Eurozone, with an additional seven due to join shortly. That will leave just Britain and Denmark outside the Eurozone. By surrendering our right to veto any further integration of this political bloc, we have given up our strongest bargaining chip in any stand off with the other member states. We will have no choice but to swallow all new laws or regulations that this political bloc comes up with, however detrimental they are to Britain’s interests. That was the conclusion of Peter Lilley, a former Secretary of State for Trade and Industry: ‘The UK would be very vulnerable if we remain in the EU on these terms.’

    If the UK has enjoyed any influence within the EU it is because of the risk that we might one day leave. The other 27 member states may not have much love for Britain, but because we’re their largest single export market and because we’re the EU’s second largest net contributor – on average, we contribute about £10 billion a year to the EU’s annual budget – they’d prefer us to stick around. That’s why successive British Prime Ministers have been able to negotiate various rebates and opt-outs.

    But if we vote to Remain, particularly after Cameron has surrendered one of our few remaining vetoes, Britain’s influence will ebb away to nothing. Any talk of leaving in future will be dismissed as an empty threat. The British people will have demonstrated their willingness to accept membership of the EU on any terms.

    Henceforth, our acquiescence to whatever new laws and regulations the EU comes up with will be taken for granted. We fought a civil war in this country to establish the principle that laws should not be made nor taxes raised except by our elected representatives – no taxation without representation. Being able to get rid of our lawmakers is a fundamental democratic right. Why have we sacrificed that right in order to tether ourselves to a bureaucratic leviathan?

    The Remainers will tell you that Britain would struggle to survive outside the EU — that we’d become an irrelevance. They call the people who want to leave the EU ‘little Englanders’, as if there’s something petty and small-minded about wanting Britain to become a sovereign state again. In their eyes, wanting to restore the right of self-determination to the British people is a bit… well, a bit common.

    And this gets to the heart of the difference between their vision of Britain and ours. They see Britain as a small island off the coast of continental Europe that no longer has any place in the world as an independent nation state. We should abandon our delusions of grandeur and accept our diminished status.

    We see Britain a little differently. Not just a small island, but the world’s fifth largest economy and fourth largest military power. One of only five countries with a permanent seat on the UN Security Council. Not the plaything of unelected officials in Brussels, but the birthplace of Parliamentary democracy.

    If you believe that Britain is strong enough to stand on its own two feet again, free from the shackles of EU laws and regulations, then I urge you to vote Leave on 23 June.

    The British people were fooled once in 1975. Don’t let the Establishment fool you again. It’s time to take back our democratic rights. ‘Men fight for liberty and win it with hard knocks. Their children, brought up easy, let it slip away again, poor fools. And their grandchildren are once more slaves.’ – DH Lawrence

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06...acts-not-fear/
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    What you're about to watch is nothing but truth. No fearmongering, no speculation, just cold and sober deductions about the EU.

    My challenge to you remain voters and undecided voters is to watch and listen carefully to the video (it's only 14 minutes long) and still stoutly stand by your position on either remaining or that the EU is not undemocratic.

    Here's a tip - you won't manage it.

    Brexit: Facts Not Fiction


    Don't ignore this. If you have the ability to cast a vote, you must do as every other one of us does and keep an open, unbigoted mind and view all sides of the debate (and yes, this does mean that I've been reading all your Remain stuff!)
    I'm not watching propaganda specifically aimed at trying to get me too vote one way and lacking any sort of balance.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    What you're about to watch is nothing but truth. No fearmongering, no speculation, just cold and sober deductions about the EU.

    My challenge to you remain voters and undecided voters is to watch and listen carefully to the video (it's only 14 minutes long) and still stoutly stand by your position on either remaining or that the EU is not undemocratic.

    Here's a tip - you won't manage it.

    Brexit: Facts Not Fiction

    Don't ignore this. If you have the ability to cast a vote, you must do as every other one of us does and keep an open, unbigoted mind and view all sides of the debate (and yes, this does mean that I've been reading all your Remain stuff!)
    OK, I watched all of the video.

    1. I don't object to being part of a 'United States of Earth', never mind Europe. Why? Because I think people fundamentally want the same things for themselves wherever they are in the world, and I don't believe we should be defined by arbitrary lines on a map.

    2. There seems to be a gaping contradiction in portraying the European Parliament as an all-conquering body which overrides the British veto, but also as a feeble entity which can't override the laws proposed by 28 individuals. Which is it?

    3. 'No taxation without representation' is a phrase from the American independence movement, not Cromwell. What's that, Britain has also infringed upon the sovereignty of other people? Seems that way.

    4. You don't need me to tell you how foolish it is to generalise people who are voting to stay as either elitists ('they think of national sovereignty as a bit common'), or as people who want to put the country down (a classic nationalist argument). I am not voting to stay because of what the likes of Cameron and Corbyn have to say, just as I hope you aren't voting to leave because of what Farage and BoJo have to say.

    5. The idea of the British parliament being any more democratic than its European counterpart is pretty amusing. Our FPTP voting system gives disproportionate weighting to established parties and puts many off voting if they live in safe seats. Just 2 years ago I voted in the Scottish referendum where the Leave side in that made many of the same arguments you are now making to support your case. I voted for Scotland to stay, before you go with the anti-British accusation. The point is there is clearly a lot of dissatisfaction within Britain about how we carry out our democratic process.

    6. I can find silly photos of Farage as easily as this guy can find silly photos of Dave. Doesn't make it any more relevant to the argument.

    7. I am not oblivious to the faults of the EU as an organisation. I do however agree with the principle, and think we are better off working with those across the continent to make it work better for its constituents. In a world where resources are becoming more keenly contested, and where environmental impacts are felt more than ever before, nationalistic isolationism isn't the answer.

    This was fun, let's do it again some time.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Are you trying to claim anything in this video is untrue?
    Did I say that? No. Keep up.

    Im saying it's skewed and doesn't give the full picture by missing out facts. It's deceitful, misleading and unrepresentative. The video certainly shouldn't be used to persuade if we were to play fairly.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I'm not watching propaganda specifically aimed at trying to get me too vote one way and lacking any sort of balance.
    *unless it's David "bae" Cameron?

    Your journey to the regressive left is complete now you don't even seem to want your ideas to be able to be challenged

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    *unless it's David "bae" Cameron?

    Your journey to the regressive left is complete now you don't even seem to want your ideas to be able to be challenged

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    Considering I oppose Corbyn and want a a more right wing labour leader, and the fact that I have supported Cameron and Osborne in this referendum, I find it perplexing how that makes me of the 'regressive left'.
    If I didn't want my ideas to be challenged I wouldn't be supporting our Tory MP.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Considering I oppose Corbyn and want a a more right wing labour leader, and the fact that I have supported Cameron and Osborne in this referendum, I find it perplexing how that makes me of the 'regressive left'.
    If I didn't want my ideas to be challenged I wouldn't be supporting our Tory MP.
    If you didn't want to avoid your ideas being challenged you would let them be challenged

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    If you didn't want to avoid your ideas being challenged you would let them be challenged

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    I have let them be. Initially I was in favour of brexit. Then I challenged my ideas and felt overall we're better in. I'm not going to listen to a propaganda video pretending to be balanced.

    So do tell me, how does supporting a Tory pm, and wanting more a more right wing labour leader maker me of the 'regressive left'.
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    I won the challenge where's my prize.
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    What a crap video.

    "These laws are written up by the council and we have no say over them what so ever! By the time they come to us all we can do is change them, reject them or approve them!"

    So basically we review it and decide if we like it, the same as every sensible democracy? Or should we all get our biros out and scribble at the same time?

    Also quoting the American "No taxation without representation" is just utterly ridiculous.

    OP, you appears to be of the opinion that Britain not having 100% control of the EU = undemocratic. In reality, when you are one of 28 states and have ~13% of the vote (much more than 1/28th I might add), you are going to get outvoted sometimes. It's called democracy.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    What you're about to watch is nothing but truth. No fearmongering, no speculation, just cold and sober deductions about the EU.

    My challenge to you remain voters and undecided voters is to watch and listen carefully to the video (it's only 14 minutes long) and still stoutly stand by your position on either remaining or that the EU is not undemocratic.

    Here's a tip - you won't manage it.

    Brexit: Facts Not Fiction


    Don't ignore this. If you have the ability to cast a vote, you must do as every other one of us does and keep an open, unbigoted mind and view all sides of the debate (and yes, this does mean that I've been reading all your Remain stuff!)
    :yawn:

    This whole thing has been one big pissing competition, and I don't want to hear it. I definitely don't want to watch it.

    What I vote for is upto me. Not you. Not anyone else. So **** off.
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    (Original post by Tootles)
    :yawn:

    This whole thing has been one big pissing competition, and I don't want to hear it. I definitely don't want to watch it.

    What I vote for is upto me. Not you. Not anyone else. So **** off.
    The video only states one argument (I was expecting several things like economy etc) so isn't exactly going to change many people's choices.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I have let them be. Initially I was in favour of brexit. Then I challenged my ideas and felt overall we're better in. I'm not going to listen to a propaganda video pretending to be balanced.

    So do tell me, how does supporting a Tory pm, and wanting more a more right wing labour leader maker me of the 'regressive left'.
    You're supporting a Tory pm on a non left-right matter for left wing reasons, and unless you're suggesting corbyn is centre to centre right, which I wouldn't put past you, right of Corbyn is still, guess what, left.

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    (Original post by Elivercury)
    What a crap video.

    "These laws are written up by the council and we have no say over them what so ever! By the time they come to us all we can do is change them, reject them or approve them!"

    So basically we review it and decide if we like it, the same as every sensible democracy? Or should we all get our biros out and scribble at the same time?

    Also quoting the American "No taxation without representation" is just utterly ridiculous.

    OP, you appears to be of the opinion that Britain not having 100% control of the EU = undemocratic. In reality, when you are one of 28 states and have ~13% of the vote (much more than 1/28th I might add), you are going to get outvoted sometimes. It's called democracy.
    We don't have ~13%, we have less than 10% with almost 13% of the population

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    We don't have ~13%, we have less than 10% with almost 13% of the population

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    Okay, with 10% of the vote we should expect to be on the losing side some of the time. Point still stands.
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    stay in chérie

    E:heart:U
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    What you're about to watch is nothing but truth. No fearmongering, no speculation, just cold and sober deductions about the EU.

    My challenge to you remain voters and undecided voters is to watch and listen carefully to the video (it's only 14 minutes long) and still stoutly stand by your position on either remaining or that the EU is not undemocratic.

    Here's a tip - you won't manage it.

    Brexit: Facts Not Fiction


    Don't ignore this. If you have the ability to cast a vote, you must do as every other one of us does and keep an open, unbigoted mind and view all sides of the debate (and yes, this does mean that I've been reading all your Remain stuff!)
    A video that is supposed to persuade somebody is by definition biased. Being biased does not mean lying and giving faulty facts, but presenting some facts and not others.

    You could just as easily make a video showcasing a different set of facts about the EU and you would get a different response. That video may persuade people to vote Remain.

    My concern with leaving the EU is that while we will have more control of our borders, we will be overall less prosperous. I'm not just talking about money, but education and quality of life. The gaps between different enclaves of society will widen.

    The best way to really understand this issue is to get information from a variety of sources and also listen to what experts have to say.

    I appreciate you sharing this video. I don't appreciate some people acting like one piece of information is some kind of holy grail.
    For example, I'm not a fan of George Osborne but if he says something regarding Brexit that is connected to his area of expertise (budgets etc) I will listen with an open mind.

    Leave-voters disregard almost all comments by heads of banks, CEOs, and powerful politicians as fear-mongering. A CEO acts in a way that favours the company. If a Brexit will not be good for it, of course he/she will take the measures needed.
    It's not like the head of a bank is so in love with Britain that they will stay if it hurts their bank. Of course not. And if a bank leaves, they're taking all that money with them.

    Maybe in a different time, a brexit may be a favourable. But the political situation in the world right now is too shaky.

    For example, if Trump becomes president and calls for a war against ISIS, we are a stronger nation together with the other countries of Europe than we are on our own.

    Sorry if this turned into a rant, but I hope you know that I am speaking from a place of great affection for this nation. And a genuine belief that we are better off for now inside the EU.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You're supporting a Tory pm on a non left-right matter for left wing reasons, and unless you're suggesting corbyn is centre to centre right, which I wouldn't put past you, right of Corbyn is still, guess what, left.

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    Laughable. Perhaps let me make my own opinions rather than tell me what they are eh?

    No Corbyn is certainly left wing. More left wing than me for sure. I'm centre left about where Tom farron is or Gordon brown was.
    I want a more right wing labour leader, if I were of the regressive left, I would not.

    I'm supporting eu for a number of reasons and not all left wing. Partly workers rights, partly economic reasons, partly having influence on a global stage.

    You may disagree with me, but stating I'm of the 'regressive left' when I am supporitng a tory government and want a more right wing labour leader, is nonsense.

    You're playing the man, not the ball here.
    So I'll ask again, how am I of the regressive left when I want a centrist labour leader?
 
 
 
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