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Leave's biggest asset: Anti-intellectualism Watch

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    (Original post by Rover73)
    The $117.5 billion London-based European arm of Goldman Sachs Asset Management has warned a UK vote to leave the European Union in June could "affect" how it does business, as it revealed its profits surged to a four-year high in 2015.

    The credit crisis created by banks, helped to push over 100 million people over the poverty line. People who pass the poverty line, have a much lower life expectancy than those above it. The banking crisis probably killed more people than WW2. Paul Moore Barrister, whistleblower HBOS

    These are the bankers who fund the Remain Campaign, and you want to vote for them? Its utterly sickening.
    This is an ad hominem attack. Is that the level Leave are operating at now?

    Are you seriously suggesting it's only bankers who back Remain? That is delusional.

    There are enough sickos backing Leave that I could literally copy-paste your comment and just change the names.
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    (Original post by ib_hopeful)
    Whenever an expert weighs in on Brexit, Leave dismiss everything they say as fear mongering. Cynicism is so easy. And cynics don't accomplish much.
    Odd, my Brexit vote is based on intellectualism.

    How do Remain propose to enforce reform on the EU towards a democratic and financially stable, healthy community?

    How will the British government secure much needed/wanted concessions considering the UK's poor track record (especially of late) in negotiations?

    Why won't they answer these simple questions?

    Why do they make doom and gloom predictions about the UK outside of the EU when all the actual evidence suggests that not only can the UK survive outside of a stumbling failing EU, but probably ultimately thrive?

    Considering the strong facts against Remain, what motivates Remain campaigner's and these same expert's support for it?

    Why does Remain ignore other experts who undermine their position?


    Anti-intellectualism is a dangerous road to go down..
    That it truly is. Why answer awkward questions when you can hide behind it and dangle bread and circuses instead?

    Because it'd be the right thing to do. And if ultimately you cannot win with your position, it's intellectually correct to reconsider it.

    The Remain campaign on the other hand seems to be a case of fear-mongering and intellectually mistaken ideas about the UK somehow being thoroughly isolated and left to adrift in a barren and poor international sea.
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    I have put nothing but facts in my threads.

    And no, sometimes it is not good to listen to some experts. Most of them get funded and have relationships with EU leaders, so it could be obvious that they will scare you to Vote Remain.

    Think for yourself, and Vote Leave. Ignore IMF and the other experts.
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    Im Voting Leave because I want UK to have it's sovereignty back. I am also Voting Leave because I want UK to take back control of the £350 million paid to EU every week, take back control of our free trade laws, take back control of our borders and our tax funds.
    Clearly, the economy of this country is weakening. If we want good economy, more investments into our country, better quality of life for our families and children, then we should Vote Leave.


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    ^ jesus you're like a broken record. Post something original please.
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    (Original post by TercioOfParma)
    There are idiots on both sides. There are people on the remain side who believe that trying to slow immigration is racist.
    Don't deflate the issue.

    There aren't nearly as many people from Remain who blatantly reject experts. In fact, I bet you'd struggle to find even a handful.

    This comment just seems desperate. I don't think anybody has naively said "slowing immigration is racist" LOL!


    Maybe they pointed out that the way you put forth your argument is nudge nudge wink wink xenophobic. A prime example is UKIP's recent poster.


    It's not an attack on Nigel Farage's views. The way he put forth his views was irresponsible, visceral, and ambiguous. (Enabling him to slither himself out if need be)


    If that's the same as "it's racist", my friend you are woefully mistaken.
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    (Original post by ib_hopeful)
    Anti-intellectualism is a dangerous road to go down. Ignorance is not a virtue
    Completely agree.. which is why I've dedicated my intellect to making the case for Leave. No-one has come close to challenging the following on TSR, or anywhere else for that matter, in an intellectually honest and robust manner (can't be done tbh). Sorry to burst your bubble :bubbles:

    For anyone who missed TSR's Big EU Referendum - The Panel Debate, here are the main points raised on behalf of #VoteLeave:

    #VoteLeave: UK Finances
    As a committed Europhile (in the true sense of the word) I feel a strong sense of fraternity with our continental cousins, and as someone who has lived on the continent know Europe to be a fantastic place – steeped in rich culture, history, and heritage, and (ordinarily) abound with opportunities. As a learned social scientist, and someone who has dedicated himself to exploring/debating the EU in some detail, I also feel a sense of foreboding about our continued membership of the ailing institution, however:

    UK ECONOMY
    • UK payments to the EU (£13bn p.a.) constitute 20% of the budget deficit, of which only a third comes back – with strings attached | FFT
    • Net fiscal contribution of EEA migrants is +/- £2bn, or 0.25% of public expenditure i.e. impact of EU migration is small either way | MW
    • One of Project Fear’s many threats is that #Brexit will see house prices fall by 20%, according to the Chancellor. Yes please, Mr. Osborne! | GDN

    PUBLIC FINANCES
    • The way the EU has briefed against, bullied, and corralled, countries like Greece and Ireland is nothing short of scandalous | REU
    • UK already bailed out Eurozone (£20bn) sadly on the brink of another crisis – one that will cost us all dearly/probably be terminal for the EU | FT
    • Big business is using the ECJ to claw back billions of pounds of historic tax revenues. Remaining is about social solidarity and sustainability? | DM

    UK INDUSTRY
    • UK fishing receives just 21% of the funds that the EU sends to the Spanish, who pay in far less, and fish (our waters) far more | EUR
    • EU Common Fisheries Policy has cost an estimated 115,000 jobs, decimating British fishing/significantly degrading proud maritime history | TYO
    • CAP takes up half of EU budget, 80% goes to 25% of farmers, it’s wasteful, and harms farmers outside EU e.g. food dumping | EUR



    #VoteLeave: UK Trade
    It is impossible to be completely clear as to the precise impact of Brexit on trade; that is, except to say that when it comes to International Political Economy, and the quality of our diplomatic/economic personnel and institutions, the UK is very well placed to minimise related turbulence, and that - contrary to what the media has been telling us - there are plenty of respected Economists who have conducted detailed analyses and concluded that leaving would be in our economic interests e.g. Professors Minford and Congdon, Economists For Brexit, and Capital Economics

    TRADE POSITION
    • We are the 5th largest economy in the world, and are forecast to leapfrog Germany and Japan within a generation | TMS
    • Unlike Switzerland/Norway, we run a sizeable trade deficit with the EU (£120bn worth of goods) and are the biggest importer of EU goods | NIE
    • Top exporters to the EU: China, USA, etc trade rather freely, and prosperously, in the absence of membership of the customs union | EUR



    #VoteLeave: Free Movement
    INEQUALITY
    • Effect of free movement is effectively to drive down wages/employment T&Cs at the bottom, and to drive up bankers' bonuses at the top | GDN
    • The best and brightest Europeans have been emigrating en masse, worsening spatial deprivation by inflicting a 'brain drain' on the periphery
    • Our National Living Wage, whilst laudable, will further incentivise millions to travel to the UK, when income disparities are already huge

    SOCIETY
    • The sheer number, mobility, and patchy levels of integration of migrants is irrefutably causing societal friction and pressure on public services
    • It's clear that it has become increasingly difficult to secure affordable/social housing due, in large part, to related demand-side pressure | HSG
    • Roughly 50% of EU migrants return home within a decade but this churning thematic is linked to low English learning/integration | UoR

    SECURITY
    • EU’s European Court of Justice (ECJ) arbitrarily prevents barring/deportation of convicted criminals, terrorists, and unemployed migrants | BBC
    The Migrant Crisis is a shambles and the EU intends to fine member states a €250,000 per asylum seeker they refuse entry | BBC
    • Relatively unvetted non-EU migrants are being given EU residency/citizenship. We are unable to bar their entry, despite ISIS threat | REU[/spoiler]



    #VoteLeave: Political/Legislative Issues
    THE EUROPEAN PROJECT
    • Jean Monnet (founding father of the EU): 'Common market will lead to unity and produce political union which is the goal' | NWE
    • President Jean Claude Juncker: "There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties" | BBC

    DEMOCRATIC DEFICIT
    • Democratically elected Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) cannot propose, initiate, or even repeal legislation | EUR
    • We are 1 voice in 28 (soon to be 35), and have only a tiny share (13%) of the all important EU Council of Ministers vote vs. "at top table" | FFT

    LOSS OF SOVEREIGNTY
    • A federalised United States of Europe and EU armed forces are very real prospects a la: 'ever closer union' and 'common defence' | EUR
    • The bulk of UK law is already heavily influenced by EU law - which is supreme, at any rate. Political unification will mean total submission | HoC

    LOSS OF DIGNITY
    • Surreptitious global (crony) capitalist deals like TTIP will eventually get passed vs. consumer/privacy/environmental standards and GovT sued | ZH
    • No control over massive EU migration has led to GovT squeezing other migrants, which is both iniquitous and to the detriment of our nation | GDN



    #VoteLeave: The Future EU
    REFORM
    • Ours is the first exit-referendum that the powers that be have failed to prevent in the 23 years the EU has technically been in existence
    • There is no appetite, need, or incentive for the EU to reform itself and if we remain in then the reform agenda will be completely dead and buried
    • Crippling effects of Eurozone suffocation and EU austerity on (youth) unemployment and welfare mean most Europeans are desperate for reform | EUR
    • Greece tried to use Democracy to effect change with a referendum; the EU rejected the will of the people and instigated regime change! | ZH

    SECURITY
    • Switzerland will not be sharing the security woes of the EU, having opted out of free movement (2014) and withdrawn EU application last week | DM
    • EU Com has agreed to award people travelling from Turkey visa free travel and essentially committed to fast-tracking Turkish membership | BBC
    • Other Eastern nations are also earmarked for accession - Bosnia, 'The Cradle of Modern Jihadism', recently submitted it's application | BBC
    • Cameron has stated that he wants these countries to join, and repeatedly refused to commit to vetoing Turkish membership on QT | BBC




    #VoteLeave: #BeLeave in Britain!

    • We regain control of our rights, borders, waters (fishing), waterways (reduce flood risk), transport, and can slash red tape
    • We end EU institutional supremacy, retake our seat at the Word Trade Organisation (WTO), and are free to spend our money on our priorities
    • We are free to foster a healthy new cooperative, free trade relationship with our European partners and meritocratic immigration
    • We set the scene for EU reform and can always mirror progressive EU trends in a way that suits our culture, society, and economy

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    If I have to see another crazy leaver post that stupid Brexit the Movie comedy I swear I'll make the European Army myself and stamp out this nonsense.

    If a lowbrow talk show host like John Oliver can debunk it, don't you feel a little silly for believing it like gospel?
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    (Original post by ib_hopeful)
    Don't deflate the issue.

    There aren't nearly as many people from Remain who blatantly reject experts. In fact, I bet you'd struggle to find even a handful.

    This comment just seems desperate. I don't think anybody has naively said "slowing immigration is racist" LOL!


    Maybe they pointed out that the way you put forth your argument is nudge nudge wink wink xenophobic. A prime example is UKIP's recent poster.


    It's not an attack on Nigel Farage's views. The way he put forth his views was irresponsible, visceral, and ambiguous. (Enabling him to slither himself out if need be)


    If that's the same as "it's racist", my friend you are woefully mistaken.
    But there are. I wasn't making a statement either way. Limiting immigration isn't racist unless the way you limit immigration is based on race.
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    I have put nothing but facts in my threads.

    And no, sometimes it is not good to listen to some experts. Most of them get funded and have relationships with EU leaders, so it could be obvious that they will scare you to Vote Remain.

    Think for yourself, and Vote Leave. Ignore IMF and the other experts.
    Ignore the experts? What a stupid remark.
    If my car's broken and a mechanic advises me on how to fix it should I ignore him because he's an expert and instead 'think for myself'?

    This notion of ignoring experts is farcical.
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    (Original post by similarBlank)
    Fact: Britain is a small island of 243,610 km².

    Fact: We have a population of nearly 65 Million.

    Fact: This is overcrowded as it is, as shown by the fact that the United Kingdom has the third highest population density, with 679 pop./mi², in Europe.

    Fact: We do not have infinite room.

    Fact: We do not have infinite resources.

    Fact: Being in the EU forces us to keep our borders open, causing us to have net migration of over 300,000, with potentially a much larger number in the future.

    Fact: If this continues, we will simply eventually run out of space and resources and everyone, except the establishment and the well off, will become more poorer than ever.

    Fact: The Remain camp, and people such as those at Dover today with 'migrants welcome' placards, seem to completely ignore and disregard these facts that are right in front of us.

    I completely agree with you:

    The rejection of facts, the rejection of reason and science, that is the path to decline.

    #VoteLeave
    "Overcrowding" is an opinion,not a fact. Which resources do we not have enough of?
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    (Original post by ib_hopeful)
    Whenever an expert weighs in on Brexit, Leave dismiss everything they say as fear mongering. Cynicism is so easy. And cynics don't accomplish much.


    Anti-intellectualism is a dangerous road to go down. Ignorance is not a virtue. Of course we should listen to experts as long as they are impartial. When Leave express a disdain for facts, and are not held accountable for repeating falsehoods, and just making stuff up while actual experts are dismissed as elitist, then we’ve got a problem.


    The rejection of facts, the rejection of reason and science, that is the path to decline.

    EDIT: If you agree, share this with fellow voters who are undecided.
    Some problems with this:

    1. They are not impartial if they receive vast sums from the EU, as so many of them do

    2. They have an appalling track record of predicting success and failure
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    (Original post by Fenice)
    Some problems with this:

    1. They are not impartial if they receive vast sums from the EU, as so many of them do

    2. They have an appalling track record of predicting success and failure
    More appalling than someone who is not an expert?
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    (Original post by happyrubbit)
    More appalling than someone who is not an expert?
    You ask an impossible question, but if an expert gets something very wrong several times, I am loath to trust their judgement about what we should do in the future. If anything it would persuade me to do the opposite
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    (Original post by Fenice)
    You ask an impossible question, but if an expert gets something very wrong several times, I am loath to trust their judgement about what we should do in the future. If anything it would persuade me to do the opposite
    So you should not trust experts and instead trust people who are not experts? An expert by definition should have a better judgement in their area of expertise than the layman.
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    Vote leave
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    (Original post by happyrubbit)
    So you should not trust experts and instead trust people who are not experts?
    I think that you should listen to the arguments and trust yourself.

    An expert by definition should have a better judgement in their area of expertise than the layman.
    I am going to treat expert opinion by the results of its previous predictions, not by how many letters are after its name.
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    (Original post by Fenice)
    I think that you should listen to the arguments and trust yourself.



    I am going to treat expert opinion by the results of its previous predictions, not by how many letters are after its name.
    These experts with letters after their name have those letters for a reason. They know much more about these issues than you and the majority of the population, they are in a much better position to make accurate predictions. Give me a good set of examples of non-experts having a track record of better predictions than an expert (I'm tempted to say this is impossible since if someone makes many good predictions based on sound reasoning I would define them as an expert).

    To address your other point: In principle I agree with you, however the majority of people are in a terrible position to make a good judgement, including myself, because we do not have the knowledge and experience to make accurate predictions. This and the precautionary principle (look it up) I think makes a quite interesting argument for remain.
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    (Original post by Fenice)
    Some problems with this:

    1. They are not impartial if they receive vast sums from the EU, as so many of them do

    2. They have an appalling track record of predicting success and failure
    Easier to attack the people than the argument, a Leaver tactic.
 
 
 
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