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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)

    The truth is that the EU is actually us. We are one of the biggest powers in it - one of the Big Three - Germany, France and the UK - and arguably, one of the Big Two - Germany and the UK.

    More than 90% of the crucial decisions of the EU, carried out in the Council of Ministers, have been approved by the UK government of the day.

    The UK is listened to far more than most other countries and British people do well in Europe generally - partly because our native tongue is the dominant language of the world now and partly because most Europeans like Britain, are fond of us and feel, like it or not, deferential to us and our culture at times, because of history.

    The EU cannot be our enemy because we are it and it is us.
    In that case we should have used our leverage to get some fundamental reforms which would stop this whole argument in the UK:

    1. Change the principle of free movement of people, so its still quite open but give national governments some rights eg to not extend all parts of a domestic welfare system to citizens of other EU countries; set own skills/language/experience requirements for immigration from other EU countries

    2. Change the institutions of the EU to make them more democratic, eg create a directly elected Commission where each member state elects a Commissioner who is allowed to act in the member state's interest and has a weighted vote, or have an executive which comes from the Parliament like a UK Cabinet.

    3. Abolish the Common Agricultural Policy which has been a distortion and a sop to vested interests for a long time.

    With just these three changes you could guarantee a lot more popular support for the EU, this referendum would not even be close if the EU on offer was the above, and it would probably help the EU get more legitimacy amongst citizens of many other countries.

    So the question is why doesn't the UK just push this through using its influence?
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    (Original post by Maker)
    The current immigration policy was not imposed by the EU, Britain voluntarily accepted the policy as part of being in the EU.
    They are obviously not mutually exclusive things.

    'Britain voluntarily agreed to adopt an immigration policy imposed by Brussels as part of being in the EU'
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    (Original post by Maker)
    Most people Leavers hate are self made men and women, the only thing that they don't like about them is they don't agree with Leavers.

    He invented the ball wheel barrow or ball barrow. I saw it being demostrated on TV years ago before he invented the cleaner.
    I really find it amusing and annoying how you talk as if you know everything about a group of millions of people. You don't. You act like some oracle.

    What gives you any right to say : Leavers think this and leavers say that and they feel this.

    ??

    Secondly you Mr. Are wrong. Its self made men who support the Leave campaign : James Dyson, Duncan Bannatyne... the list goes on

    But it FAT CAT corportes that support remain: JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Shell Oil, BP... the list goes on

    READ THIS:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35901811
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    (Original post by Maker)
    Then again Leavers live in a parallel paranoid universe where the EU is the modern manifestation of Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union rolled into one.
    (Original post by Maker)
    Most people Leavers hate are self made men and women, the only thing that they don't like about them is they don't agree with Leavers.
    What a shame there are people like you who can't allow a civil debate to run its course without injecting personal hostility.
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    In that case we should have used our leverage to get some fundamental reforms which would stop this whole argument in the UK:

    1. Change the principle of free movement of people, so its still quite open but give national governments some rights eg to not extend all parts of a domestic welfare system to citizens of other EU countries; set own skills/language/experience requirements for immigration from other EU countries
    Seems worth mentioning that we aren't in Schengen, so a lot of this doesn't apply to us - but those kinds of changes are bound to come in the EU anyway, as other governments are increasingly troubled by the situation. We don't need to leave the EU over it.

    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    2. Change the institutions of the EU to make them more democratic, eg create a directly elected Commission where each member state elects a Commissioner who is allowed to act in the member state's interest and has a weighted vote, or have an executive which comes from the Parliament like a UK Cabinet.
    An elected Commission and President was a key goal of the proposed constitution which the current Leave leaders all vociferously opposed at the time. The reason being that they didn't want a more democratic EU as that would challenge their slightly fantasy concept of 'sovereignty', something they were apparently quite happy to give away in the context of NATO or relations with the US.

    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    3. Abolish the Common Agricultural Policy which has been a distortion and a sop to vested interests for a long time
    Germany and the UK have been united for quite a long time now in demanding big reductions in the CAP and it has gone down by about 1/3rd. The problem continues to be France but it isn't insuperable and Hollande has indicated that he thinks the CAP needs further reform.

    We should probably be careful what we wish for though, because for all the criticisms of CAP, it also maintains an astonishing variety of food products available to EU consumers, many of which are hugely popular here too - all those French cheeses and wines are not just an obsession of the middle classes.

    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)


    So the question is why doesn't the UK just push this through using its influence?
    I think in many areas we have - for example, on reduction of the CAP.

    Yes, there are many flaws in the EU, the extension of the Euro being the most glaring - but what's the best way to fix these, drop out and snipe from the sidelines or stay as a powerful member and continue to try to influence change?

    Also, the politics of Britain with the obsession of leaving amongst parts of the Right have tended to constantly distract governments from lobbying as hard as they could have and engaging as strongly as we should have in the EU.
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    (Original post by happyrubbit)
    xenophobia.
    You racist.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Nobody is asking anyone to separately act in the best interests of the UK. The EU is a club that you join and you then ask people to support things you want to do and people ask you to support theirs. You make deals and get the best you can. We won 87% of the issues we cared about in the Council of Ministers over the last 25 years.

    Comparing the EU to the Soviet Union is really deplorable. The EU has been democratically decided upon - all of the member nations voted to join. It has a freely elected parliament and nothing can be done in it without all the member states agreeing.

    If the EU does collapse, it won't be remotely in our interests - the strength of the economy of Europe is a key British national interest.
    it's not. Most people have not been asked if they wanted to join the EU. If we weren't in already we wouldn't join. And if one member tries to leave they scare you saying the sky would fall and all the rest. The EU is fail in all aspects. The parliament has no powers,it's the unelected and technocratic commission that holds all the real power exactly like the Soviet Union. There is no democracy in the EU and that's why nobody in Europe likes the EU. Even people who are pro EU are so only because we already in and fear the exit.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Seems worth mentioning that we aren't in Schengen, so a lot of this doesn't apply to us - but those kinds of changes are bound to come in the EU anyway, as other governments are increasingly troubled by the situation. We don't need to leave the EU over it.
    Of course it applies to us this is the whole contentious point about immigration! Just because we are out of Schengen doesn't mean we are out of the agreement on free movement. If we start denying entry to EU citizens because they don't meet minimum language/qualification requirements the EU will regard it as a breach of free movement.

    And as for "these changes are bound to come in the EU anyway", Cameron went trying to push for changes and didn't even get what he wanted. As for not needing to leave the EU over it, this is the number one decisive point which engages the UK public to vote leave. If you didn't have free movement, Vote Leave would have no chance of winning the referendum. The public just don't care about 'red tape' or even sovereignty. They care about free movement, the policy of free movement doesn't have democratic support which is why it has caused all this controversy over EU membership.

    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    We should probably be careful what we wish for though, because for all the criticisms of CAP, it also maintains an astonishing variety of food products available to EU consumers, many of which are hugely popular here too - all those French cheeses and wines are not just an obsession of the middle classes.
    If these food products are hugely popular they don't need subsidies as they will be profitable anyway! The EU is super tight on State Aid rules to prevent governments subsidising industries, steel, manufacturing etc, but it's amazing how it can spend over a third of its budget in agricultural subsidies including making huge payments to wealthy landowners. Thats just a vested interest group who has lobbied for a transfer of wealth which ultimately comes from taxpayers from across the EU.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Yes, there are many flaws in the EU, the extension of the Euro being the most glaring - but what's the best way to fix these, drop out and snipe from the sidelines or stay as a powerful member and continue to try to influence change?
    This isn't possible. We aren't voting for a dream EU v Brexit. This is the EU and realistically it will stay the same undemocratic,pro immigration,expensive superstate that is now.
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    (Original post by RoyalMarine)
    This isn't possible. We aren't voting for a dream EU v Brexit. This is the EU and realistically it will stay the same undemocratic,pro immigration,expensive superstate that is now.
    Expensive?



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    (Original post by RoyalMarine)
    This isn't possible. We aren't voting for a dream EU v Brexit. This is the EU and realistically it will stay the same undemocratic,pro immigration,expensive superstate that is now.
    It's not expensive and it isn't a superstate. Apart from that I agree with you, except that it's also completely false to say that it isn't democratic. Everything the EU has ever done has been approved by elected national governments, put to their parliaments or agreed by the EU Parliament.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It's not expensive
    Since you failed to respond to my first post, I will make another.

    We send hundreds of millions of pounds to the EU every week. Please explain how we profit from this financially with specific figures clearly demonstrating how we gain more than we give in monetary terms.

    it's also completely false to say that it isn't democratic. Everything the EU has ever done has been approved by elected national governments, put to their parliaments or agreed by the EU Parliament.
    Are EU law-makers elected by and accountable to the British people?
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    (Original post by jneill)
    Expensive?



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    When you see this eye-opening graphic, you can't help wondering, what the hell is all the fuss about? :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    When you see this eye-opening graphic, you can't help wondering, what the hell is all the fuss about? :rolleyes:
    Exactly.
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    (Original post by Fenice)
    I have yet to see any convincng evidence that we ultimately make more from this membership than we give. As far as I am concerned we are unnecessarily pissing away huge amounts of money.
    Sorry but I'll have to crosspost the chart I just put on another thread.

    Since joining the EEC/EU in 1973 our economy has done well.
    So well we have even outperformed the United States.
    Be proud of this country! Be proud of our success within the EU!
    Vote REMAIN!



    You might like to read the source article. I think you'll enjoy it.
    http://www.inet.ox.ac.uk/news/Brexit
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    (Original post by Snake_God 2.0)

    THE UK has voted against legislation 79 times in EU every single time we have FAILED!


    Weres our great power now? I don't see it!
    How convenient that you failed to mention that the EU has voted with us over 2000 times? Far, far, far more than it has voted against us.

    Sorry for bringing truthful facts into the discussion, I know the leave camp has an aversion to them.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    There seems to be a tendency running through this campaign (promoted by devious people like Boris Johnson) to portray the EU as some kind of foreign enemy, over on the continent, nothing to do with us.

    The truth is that the EU is actually us. We are one of the biggest powers in it - one of the Big Three - Germany, France and the UK - and arguably, one of the Big Two - Germany and the UK.

    More than 90% of the crucial decisions of the EU, carried out in the Council of Ministers, have been approved by the UK government of the day.

    The UK is listened to far more than most other countries and British people do well in Europe generally - partly because our native tongue is the dominant language of the world now and partly because most Europeans like Britain, are fond of us and feel, like it or not, deferential to us and our culture at times, because of history.

    The EU cannot be our enemy because we are it and it is us.

    Don't be fooled by Boris, Nigel and the rest of them. They have motives for their bitterness towards the EU, most of which are nothing to do with the interests of the majority. A lot of it is to do with defending rich people who operate from the City of London and a small band of tax-evading hedge fund owners and bankers.

    We are part of Europe and we should continue to be. There is nothing to be gained by isolating ourselves on the periphery other than for those few special interests.
    Why doesn't Switzerland join the EU if it is so great ?
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    In that case we should have used our leverage to get some fundamental reforms which would stop this whole argument in the UK:

    1. Change the principle of free movement of people, so its still quite open but give national governments some rights eg to not extend all parts of a domestic welfare system to citizens of other EU countries; set own skills/language/experience requirements for immigration from other EU countries

    2. Change the institutions of the EU to make them more democratic, eg create a directly elected Commission where each member state elects a Commissioner who is allowed to act in the member state's interest and has a weighted vote, or have an executive which comes from the Parliament like a UK Cabinet.

    3. Abolish the Common Agricultural Policy which has been a distortion and a sop to vested interests for a long time.

    With just these three changes you could guarantee a lot more popular support for the EU, this referendum would not even be close if the EU on offer was the above, and it would probably help the EU get more legitimacy amongst citizens of many other countries.

    So the question is why doesn't the UK just push this through using its influence?
    1. Well, I think a more sensible solution would be to do by income if you wanted to limit freedom of movement. Having different regulations for different countries defeats the point of the EU.

    2. I agree with that. I believe that has been discussed. Not by the UK though. If Cameron was smart then I think he would have discussed such proposals.

    3. France.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    When you see this eye-opening graphic, you can't help wondering, what the hell is all the fuss about? :rolleyes:
    Data from the government. If the EU was as you describe it we wouldn't even be voting.
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    (Original post by RoyalMarine)
    Data from the government. If the EU was as you describe it we wouldn't even be voting.
    Ah, so first you didn't trust Eurostats info. And now you don't trust your government's info.

    You will still have the government, er, governing you on Friday. You know the government that has Michael Gove, Chris Grayling, et al in it.

    Who do you trust? UKIP? <= the reason we are having this referendum.
 
 
 
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