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    I've said this elsewhere, but I suppose I'll say it again...

    Firstly, we do not idly give Brussels £350 million per week, this figure is closer to £190 million. Agreed, ostensibly we give the EU more than we get back, though this is IN DIRECT PAYMENTS. Membership in the EU gives us easy access to a single market of over 500 million people. We conduct a large proportion of our trade with the EU, it's our largest trading partner! This trade is worth billions and to be honest makes the £190 million that the 'leave' campaign are crying over seem like petty change. If we want to continue exporting to them we'll still have to abide by their regulations which some so despise... EXCEPT THIS TIME we won't even get a say in them.

    I acknowledge we could establish trade deals, however they can take in excess of a decade, and we'd have to negotiate 20+ separate deals, and that amounts to a decade of uncertainty. Furthermore, WHAT makes you think that EU nations will give us favourable deals after we've just turned our backs on them!?!?

    There's a lot of talk about Turkey joining the EU, but this is unrealistic in the near future. Of the 35 or so EU charters that they have to work through to even get close to the negotiating table, they've made their way through one. They will NOT barge into the EU and bring a "flood of migrants" with them.

    I still find it incomprehensible that the leave campaign has the audacity to reject expert opinion. Granted, there have been instances where they've got things wrong, but they are 'experts' for a reason, and surely, their almost unanimous predictions that the UK will suffer outside of the EU forebode of what could turn out to be a turbulent future.
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    (Original post by TheKian)
    Unskilled immigration is good for rich people and bad for poor people. We have enough unskilled poor people in this country, we don't need anymore competition. The immigrants that come to fill jobs are great for people who need jobs filled and not so great for people who are competing for these jobs. And if you can't get a job you end up on welfare.

    You can't ignore the simple fact that immigration has pros and cons. The leave campaign wants an Australian style immigration system that says we will accept people that are currently useful to our country instead of saying EVERYONE can come in no matter what skills you have.

    This guy runs through the numbers and the impact of immigration with them, although you've already called any opposition to the current immigration system "xenophobic" which means you're probably going to ignore any sort of argument.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CyoOPNT_lQ
    Because it is xenophobic. If you deserve the job, you'll get the job regardless of where you're from. Just because you're born in the UK it doesn't entitle you to a job an immigrant could do.
    If you do "end up on welfare", blame your lack of skills or capitalism, don't blame the free movement of labour and think obstructing globalisation is the solution.
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    (Original post by adamll)
    Because it is xenophobic. If you deserve the job, you'll get the job regardless of where you're from. Just because you're born in the UK it doesn't entitle you to a job an immigrant could do.
    If you do "end up on welfare", blame your lack of skills or capitalism, don't blame the free movement of labour and think obstructing globalisation is the solution.
    It is not xenophobic at all. All the leave campaign is saying we want to choose who comes in, meaning we can let more people from India, China and America because we aren't forced into accepting EU migrants.

    I gave an example of an issue caused by mass unskilled immigration. Surprisingly, if we have more unskilled workers than we do unskilled work, we have more poor people and since there is no shortage of unskilled work, wages go down. More poor people is bad for our economy.

    You've already cried "xenophobia" and probably racism, but that is just you being ignorant and dismissive of ideas that are different to yours.
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    (Original post by TheKian)
    It is not xenophobic at all. All the leave campaign is saying we want to choose who comes in, meaning we can let more people from India, China and America because we aren't forced into accepting EU migrants.

    I gave an example of an issue caused by mass unskilled immigration. Surprisingly, if we have more unskilled workers than we do unskilled work, we have more poor people and since there is no shortage of unskilled work, wages go down. More poor people is bad for our economy.

    You've already cried "xenophobia" and probably racism, but that is just you being ignorant and dismissive of ideas that are different to yours.
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c49043a8-6...#axzz4CFFBGZm7
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...20bn-ucl-study

    Migrants seem to be pretty good tbh mate
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    Your response makes no sense, so I'll repeat it for you:

    The EU has held back the economy of the UK and Crippled the economies of Europe with the single currency leading to the Greek Debt Crisis. China has had an economic miracle outside of the EU and India outside of the EU has a Space Program and even a Mars Mission! Just imagine what we could achieve if we were outside of the EU and an independent sovereign nation like China and India. We could work with the EU and the other independent nations of Europe democratically protecting our own unique way of life working together under the protection of NATO.
    I think he called you a fool because you are comparing us to countries many times the size of us, with vastly more natural resources and each having populations a good 10x ours.

    To say nothing of the fact that they are growing and managing all of this on the basis of low wages - something leave is apparently supposed to combat.
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    (Original post by ajs12)
    I acknowledge we could establish trade deals, however they can take in excess of a decade, and we'd have to negotiate 20+ separate deals, and that amounts to a decade of uncertainty. Furthermore, WHAT makes you think that EU nations will give us favourable deals after we've just turned our backs on them!?!?
    It doesn't make sense for them to put up trade barriers, as you said before we are massive trading partners. I heard somewhere that a fifth of german cars are exported to here, do you really think germany will make it difficult for themselves to trade with us just to prove a point?

    I still find it incomprehensible that the leave campaign has the audacity to reject expert opinion. Granted, there have been instances where they've got things wrong, but they are 'experts' for a reason, and surely, their almost unanimous predictions that the UK will suffer outside of the EU forebode of what could turn out to be a turbulent future.
    All of them predict a short term dip in our economy, which I accept. I don't however think that we can't succeed economically outside the EU. If you look at the statistics for growth inside the EU, you can see that the only countries with significant growth are England and Germany, and that growth is declining. We have already had a recession IN the EU so the EU is hardly proven to be "safe" for our economy. Greece has a 50% youth unemployment. Europe is not safe for our economy and for me is a good trade off for the immigration powers and democracy


    The stuff not in quotes I mostly agree with, It's about time someone started giving actual decent arguments instead of trying to shut down discussion with alleged racism and xenophobia
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    You do vote for the politicians who represent you, however the EU has done a terrible job of informing the public on how to vote in EU issues. We don't pay £350 million because Thatcher got us a rebate so I think it's more about £260 million, and even most of that we get back in funding from other EU countries, however we do lose money, but is it enough money to decide to leave the EU?
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    (Original post by Jay_Gatsby123)
    The number is actually £190 million when you consider the money we get back from the EU in other forms, and banks and economists have predicted it will cost roughly around £190 million to set up annual trade deals, so we're paying that £190 million either way. And don't listen to Borris, he quoted a study from the Bank of England I believe and then admitted he never even read it. He can't be trusted on any stats or info he gives. Also how do you know we'll have a better quality of life?
    £385 million is the gross figure.
    The UK rebate/correction reduces our net contribution to £245 million.
    The UK rebate/correction has been in jeopardy.
    The EU budget spent on the UK reduces the figure to ~£168 million.
    The UK doesn't get to decide how this EU budget is spent.
    This EU budget comes with an EU label; propaganda.

    Just a correction.
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    (Original post by TheKian)
    do you really think germany will make it difficult for themselves to trade with us just to prove a point?
    Yes, that's exactly how a customs union works. Protectionism is imposed on those who aren't members
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    I'm not saying all EU migrants are bad, obviously. I think by choosing which immigrants we take in from EU and by allowing more immigration from non-EU countries. We will no longer be discriminating against the non-EU citizens and by choosing which people come here we can increase the benefits of immigration
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    (Original post by TheKian)
    It doesn't make sense for them to put up trade barriers, as you said before we are massive trading partners. I heard somewhere that a fifth of german cars are exported to here, do you really think germany will make it difficult for themselves to trade with us just to prove a point?



    All of them predict a short term dip in our economy, which I accept. I don't however think that we can't succeed economically outside the EU. If you look at the statistics for growth inside the EU, you can see that the only countries with significant growth are England and Germany, and that growth is declining. We have already had a recession IN the EU so the EU is hardly proven to be "safe" for our economy. Greece has a 50% youth unemployment. Europe is not safe for our economy and for me is a good trade off for the immigration powers and democracy


    The stuff not in quotes I mostly agree with, It's about time someone started giving actual decent arguments instead of trying to shut down discussion with alleged racism and xenophobia
    Agreed. You've won the argument.
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    (Original post by adamll)
    Yes, that's exactly how a customs union works. Protectionism is imposed on those who aren't members
    If you genuinely think Merkel will let her trade suffer, causing a loss of jobs and loss of income then go ahead and vote remain because if we can't trade with anyone then we will obviously lose out.

    However, I don't believe that will happen and I'd like to see democratic power come back to our country
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    (Original post by TheKian)
    It doesn't make sense for them to put up trade barriers, as you said before we are massive trading partners. I heard somewhere that a fifth of german cars are exported to here, do you really think germany will make it difficult for themselves to trade with us just to prove a point?
    Well that concerns Germany and their exports, what about us? We would struggle to sell anything to them and as a result our economy would suffer. We would have to pay tariffs on the services that we export to the EU which we agreed was our largest trading partner. These tariffs add up, we'd be facing in excess of £11 billion loss in tariffs alone, and that's only the quantifiable damage, the difficulty people would have in exporting to the EU would damage British businesses and put potential customers in the EU off. The only realistic way we could successfully trade and allow small businesses to thrive is to establish a trade deal, conveniently, being part of the EU means we practically have a trade deal with all the nations involved.

    (Original post by TheKian)
    All of them predict a short term dip in our economy, which I accept. I don't however think that we can't succeed economically outside the EU. If you look at the statistics for growth inside the EU, you can see that the only countries with significant growth are England and Germany, and that growth is declining. We have already had a recession IN the EU so the EU is hardly proven to be "safe" for our economy. Greece has a 50% youth unemployment. Europe is not safe for our economy and for me is a good trade off for the immigration powers and democracy
    I acknowledge that growth within the EU has slowed down in this year, however this is following a world wide trend. The world economy has slowed down in recent times and this is most likely due to the ever decreasing rate at which the Chinese economy is growing. That of course has an effect on Europe and we wouldn't avoid it if we were out. Similarly, that recession was a world wide banking crisis in no way exclusive to the EU, it's not as if the EU alone was responsible for what happened in 2008. Even if we were out we would not have avoided it. However, this does bring to our attention the significance of the GBP. We would have suffered greatly if we joined the Euro, but we've retained our £ and have greater control over things such as interests rates. The fact we have our own currency gives us an element of security which does make us quite 'special' in European terms. Even if Brussels screws up we'll still be fairly secure. This advantage in addition to how we have access to a large free trade market seem to me more like an advantage than a burden.

    Appreciate your arguments though so much better to see an actual argument than random unvalidated claims.
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    Voting leave does not make you a racist!
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    "I'm voting leave because I am a bit racist and want to blame the establishment and Europe for our own problems"
    Because voting leave makes you a racist.... Using stereotypes like this make you just as bad as a racist.
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    I'm voting leave because I'm a closet racist and don't like immigrants and think that some how leaving the EU will make us some great sovereign state and bring back the golden empire days... Oh that and because I'm edgy and think I know better than academics and economics specialists...because the free market is definitely the devils work. :facepalm2:
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    Go on!!!
    Lets fight for our democracy, our family, our children and our loved ones.

    "They say we have no choice but to bow down to Brussels, we say they are woefully underestimating this country and what it can do" We believe in Britain.

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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    Go on!!!
    Lets fight for our democracy, our family, our children and our loved ones.

    Yes, fight for democracy in exchange for jobs, economic integrity, political influence and strong international relations.

    No brainer, right? :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    Go on!!!
    Lets fight for our democracy, our family, our children and our loved ones.

    Your rousing rhetoric isn't exactly fooling anyone.
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    It's a once in a lifetime opportunity. Let's take it and see what happens. It will be fine in the long term anyway but Brexit will give us the freedom to govern ourselves and do what we want with more freedom and less bureaucracy. Vote leave, take our country back!
 
 
 
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