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Brexit is the single biggest threat to the UK and Europe Watch

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    (Original post by Chris1479)
    ...What are you talking about? That's what the EU Commission is for, the presenting of new legislation to the parliament... and between 15 and 50% of all new legislation introduced in Britain comes from... can you guess it? Yeah, the EU. So calling the EU a "tiny part of democracy" is completely silly.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Very few laws are made in Brussels, so yes, it is a tiny part of democracy.
    Then again I must ask you to quantify your claim.
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    Okay I'll list them out for ease of referencing.


    'Scotland will have a second referendum if they vote majorly to remain, and they will leave us with a comfortable independence vote. The UK will break up.'

    I think this is rather independent on the referendum. Nicola Sturgeon had already indicated the intention to have another referendum, and what is wrong with that? The wrong thing to do, is to suppress the will of the Scottish people by not allowing them to leave the UK if this is their will. Another wrong thing to do is to sacrifice the will of the English people to satisfy the Scottish.

    I understand that you may not like Scotland to leave the UK, or for the UK to leave the EU, however if it happens it is still their choice. It would be the most awful thing to suppress public sentiments and I hope you can respect that. In some way, the rise of the far-right can be attributed to governments suppressing the will of the people, resulting in public resentment and civil disorder.

    'The current Tory leaders will be replaced with even more right wing leaders, David Cameron and George Osbourne are pretty daft characters, but it could be so much worse.'

    Firstly there is no indication that the current leadership will be replaced by 'even more right wing leaders', only assumptions, if any. I think we should also consider our electoral procedures. Let's say that the 'more right wing leaders' are Boris Johnson and Michael Gove. For them to be elected they must challenge the party leadership and re-elected by the public. The public will be the ones who are responsible for ultimately putting them in power, and throw them out if needed. Again similar to my previous response, just because this isn't something you'd like to happen you have got to respect the majority's views.


    'There will probably be another general election within the next year, the majority of the Tory party will almost certainly flip to Boris Johnson's camp and rebel against David Cameron - and they will almost certainly win by a comfortable margin.'

    As above. I fully sympathise with your concerns but I hope you can appreciate our democracy and the checks and balances it provides if things go wrong.

    With regards to the NHS, I believe that the majority (including me) does not want a privatised NHS. It would be a suicidal policy for them to take. Being such a sensitive topic I am confident that the public will not allow them to privatise it openly or through the back door.
    Lol you called my points underdeveloped and baseless, but your replies are even more hollow. It amounts to "Scottish independence, so what?, "Ummm I don't think Boris/Gove want leadership".

    The NHS was attempted to be privatised by at least one of the three rebel tories as well.
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    Then again I must ask you to quantify your claim.
    the answer is directly above you, 13% of our laws have been influenced by Brussels
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Lol you called my points underdeveloped and baseless, but your replies are even more hollow. It amounts to "Scottish independence, so what?, "Ummm I don't think Boris/Gove want leadership".

    The NHS was attempted to be privatised by at least one of the three rebel tories as well.
    Just because 'Boris/Gove' wants leadership does not mean they will get it. We are a democracy here.

    Also I did not say 'so what' with regards to the Scottish referendum, I have stated the possibilities and the alternatives of this scenario. Are you saying we should not let them have it, just because they might leave the UK? If this is what you are suggesting then I do not think you democracy suits you very well.
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    Just because 'Boris/Gove' wants leadership does not mean they will get it. We are a democracy here.

    Also I did not say 'so what' with regards to the Scottish referendum, I have stated the possibilities and the alternatives of this scenario. Are you saying we should not let them have it, just because they might leave the UK? If this is what you are suggesting then I do not think you democracy suits you very well.
    I'm saying we should do everything we can to avoid the negative economic and political consequences of Scottish independence.

    And yes, they will get leadership one way or another. A general election will be held early, maybe within 12 months of Brexit, and the entire Tory party will shift to side with Boris/Gove as Cameron/Osbourne will be deemed ineffective leaders. As bad as they are, Boris/Gove would be a lot worse. Both of them are an embarrassment to our country, Gove who wanted to reform education and shuffle out non-British history, and Johnson who has been exposed for wanting Turkey to join the EU about a decade ago. They're both in it for the power and as long as they get that, they wouldn't care whether or not we leave. You can argue that this is all speculation, but the fact that all three of them express views contradictory to their earlier ambitions before the 2015 election is indicative of their true intentions. Nigel Farage is perhaps the only one who genuinely wants a Brexit.
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    Okay I'll list them out for ease of referencing.


    'Scotland will have a second referendum if they vote majorly to remain, and they will leave us with a comfortable independence vote. The UK will break up.'

    I think this is rather independent on the referendum. Nicola Sturgeon had already indicated the intention to have another referendum, and what is wrong with that? The wrong thing to do, is to suppress the will of the Scottish people by not allowing them to leave the UK if this is their will. Another wrong thing to do is to sacrifice the will of the English people to satisfy the Scottish.

    I understand that you may not like Scotland to leave the UK, or for the UK to leave the EU, however if it happens it is still their choice. It would be the most awful thing to suppress public sentiments and I hope you can respect that. In some way, the rise of the far-right can be attributed to governments suppressing the will of the people, resulting in public resentment and civil disorder.
    Nicola doesn't really have a mandate to have another referendum unless there are any significant changes with the UK. Leaving the EU would give her that mandate. Stating "well they'd probably do it anyway and it is their right to do it" doesn't change the fact it's a realistic outcome.

    Incidentally I voted yes in the referendum and would do so again if we left the EU.

    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    'The current Tory leaders will be replaced with even more right wing leaders, David Cameron and George Osbourne are pretty daft characters, but it could be so much worse.'

    Firstly there is no indication that the current leadership will be replaced by 'even more right wing leaders', only assumptions, if any. I think we should also consider our electoral procedures. Let's say that the 'more right wing leaders' are Boris Johnson and Michael Gove. For them to be elected they must challenge the party leadership and re-elected by the public. The public will be the ones who are responsible for ultimately putting them in power, and throw them out if needed. Again similar to my previous response, just because this isn't something you'd like to happen you have got to respect the majority's views.
    Do you really think Cameron is going to be around long if he loses? He's already said he's off in a couple of years anyway, and that was without leaving the EU and breaking up the UK.

    That aside though, there is zero requirement for the conservative party to hold another general election should Cameron step down. Labour didn't do it when Brown was appointed after Blair. You vote for the party, not the prime minister.

    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    'There will probably be another general election within the next year, the majority of the Tory party will almost certainly flip to Boris Johnson's camp and rebel against David Cameron - and they will almost certainly win by a comfortable margin.'

    As above. I fully sympathise with your concerns but I hope you can appreciate our democracy and the checks and balances it provides if things go wrong.

    With regards to the NHS, I believe that the majority (including me) does not want a privatised NHS. It would be a suicidal policy for them to take. Being such a sensitive topic I am confident that the public will not allow them to privatise it openly or through the back door.
    I don't actually think there will be a general election within the next year, sorry if I gave the impression I did. I think Gove/Boris will replace Cameron and ride it to 2020.

    I mean you can sympathise, but you've essentially agreed with what I have said. Not sharing my concerns over them happening is not the same as stating they won't happen.

    Also they haven't put "destroying the NHS" on either of their manifestos, but they are certainly doing a good job of it despite this. The claim that the public won't vote for them if they put "we're going to destroy the NHS" may be correct, but it's also ludicrous to think that would be their approach. Just look at the junior doctors debacle.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    the answer is directly above you, 13% of our laws have been influenced by Brussels
    I think you better read this source:

    https://fullfact.org/news/what-propo...omes-brussels/

    The overall conclusion:

    'Indeed as the House of Commons Library concluded, it is "possible to justify any measure between 15% and 50% or thereabouts, depending on the approach.'

    I do not know where you got the 13% figure from.
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    (Original post by floury)
    This is simply project fear and I'm voting leave tomorrow as a big fat **** off to French threats about Brexit.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    This is not about being told what to vote, or even getting huffy that people are trying to tell you what to vote. You should review both sides of the facts & statistics, and make YOUR OWN decisions about which way you will be voting.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Project fear is justified if the threats are real. The remain camp purports generally justified threats. The Brexit camp makes up stupid threats like "Syria and Iraq are going to be joining the EU" by highlighting and naming those two countries in red on their leaflet, its disgusting.
    Now you're just being silly. Nobody has suggested that Syria and Iraq are joining the EU, they were labelled on the map to show the location of Turkey, which is joining the EU.
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    I think you better read this source:

    https://fullfact.org/news/what-propo...omes-brussels/

    The overall conclusion:

    'Indeed as the House of Commons Library concluded, it is "possible to justify any measure between 15% and 50% or thereabouts, depending on the approach.'

    I do not know where you got the 13% figure from.
    Thats including EU regulations which are purely economic, not laws which affect us. You'll find that barely 13% of the laws put forward actually have an influence on our daily lives.
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    I think you better read this source:

    https://fullfact.org/news/what-propo...omes-brussels/

    The overall conclusion:

    'Indeed as the House of Commons Library concluded, it is "possible to justify any measure between 15% and 50% or thereabouts, depending on the approach.'

    I do not know where you got the 13% figure from.
    Thank you for saving me the effort CherishFreedom, that was the source I was referring to. Alevelstresss is making it up as he/she goes along. Fortunately for Brexit the majority of people who think like Alevelstresss (sic) here are too young to vote anyway and will find it hard to foist their unfounded europhile views on the rest of us via the ballot box. I'm afraid Alevelstresss will have to make do with a cushy sinecure at local BBC radio or the occasional column at the grauniad where he/she will fit in perfectly.
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    (Original post by ATW1)
    Now you're just being silly. Nobody has suggested that Syria and Iraq are joining the EU, they were labelled on the map to show the location of Turkey, which is joining the EU.
    No, but it was a scare tactic and its indicative that your idea that Remain = project fear is unwarranted, as the Brexiteers are equally, if not worse in their scaremongering.
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    The boring truth:

    Leaving the EU will be a largely symbolic gesture with neither large negative nor large positive consequences. EU membership will be replaced by a series of treaties that amount to membership in all but name.

    Remaining in the EU is not really a vote to remain, as we will still be sidelined and eventually ejected for our refusal to join the Euro and Schengen and the future initiatives that will follow from them.

    We're going where we're going.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    No, but it was a scare tactic and its indicative that your idea that Remain = project fear is unwarranted, as the Brexiteers are equally, if not worse in their scaremongering.
    I am giving you facts, from an unbiased source. Whereas you were throwing out random statistics and assumptions on this thread.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    No, but it was a scare tactic and its indicative that your idea that Remain = project fear is unwarranted, as the Brexiteers are equally, if not worse in their scaremongering.
    Who are these mythical voters who are so timid and stupid that they think Iraq is about to join the European Union alevelstresss? Anyone that stupid is unlikely to be able to read the ballot paper let alone transport themselves to the polling station unassisted.
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    I am giving you facts, from an unbiased source. Whereas you were throwing out random statistics and assumptions on this thread.
    Funny, because that 13% figure comes from the exact same website on another section.

    you accuse me of making baseless assumptions, you assume that these are random statistics, its clear that you're unconditionally pro-Brexit, no matter how tiny your stupid ideas of 'getting out democracy back' are.
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    (Original post by Chris1479)
    Who are these mythical voters who are so timid and stupid that they think Iraq is about to join the European Union alevelstresss? Anyone that stupid is unlikely to be able to read the ballot paper let alone transport themselves to the polling station unassisted.
    I hope you're being deliberately stupid. The point of the leaflet was to point out the proximity of Syria and Iraq to Turkey rather than to purport that their membership will be considered.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Funny, because that 13% figure comes from the exact same website on another section.

    you accuse me of making baseless assumptions, you assume that these are random statistics, its clear that you're unconditionally pro-Brexit, no matter how tiny your stupid ideas of 'getting out democracy back' are.
    Link?
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    It annoys me when both sides make these grand claims about what will happen if we don't do the thing that they are campaigning to do. There are possible good and bad outcomes of either option, and we simply have no way of knowing what will happen no matter how long we debate it for.

    That being said, I am on the side of remaining. I haven't seen too much benefit in leaving, and I don't really care about immigration (they're human beings too, why should we have more of a right to a job and/or safety than them?). On the other hand, it does seem like it could heavily damage both our political and trade relations.
 
 
 
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