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Will you guys just shut the **** up about losing the referendum? Watch

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    (Original post by elen90)
    Good lord, you just said so yourself that you were only referring to the 'jist' of comments. That says it all.

    The 'jist' can be entirely subjective.
    Ok sorry ill be more explicit because i thought people were aware of the statements i was alluding to and so could connect the dots of my point.

    Cameron: "Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking? - "I would never be so rash to make that assumption." : said when asked whether he thought that our membership ensured EU peace and stability.

    Junker: "Why is it so dangerous? Because no one can foresee what the long-term consequences would be,” Tusk said. “As a historian I fear that Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but also of western political civilisation in its entirety.”

    outrage by remainers for points the leave campaign didn't actually say, and these people are on record for outrageous scare mongering.. talk about pointing out the spec of dust in your brother's eye when you have a plank in yours
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    It would of course be possible not to have another referendum and just to reject the outcome of this one, although I don't think that would be politically feasible.
    I can agree with your statement. I doubt the government will allow another referendum but if they do, that in itself would be undemocratic.

    I just think people should start accepting the result, perhaps campaign for some agreements that the UK can make, and move on rather than cry and moan about it like spoiled children.
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    (Original post by CharlesJH)
    I see there has been a vote amongst all UK citizens, and at least I'm sure that the votes were not rigged so, please elaborate of why it was undemocratic.
    - 16/17 year olds were not included, despite being in the demographic affected for the greatest period of time.
    - The referendum never should have existed because the decision on leaving the EU was not ours to make (this opens up another trail of arguments but I've already dealt with this, I'll link you to those posts if need be).
    - The 'majority' was 52% of a 72% turnout of eligible voters.
    - EU citizens who have lived here for years and contributed greatly to the economy were deprived of the vote.
    - The Leave campaign has founded itself on misinformation and lies, spearheaded by an opportunist who never wanted the actual Brexit result.
    - Many of those who voted Leave were the disillusioned working classes making a protest vote, rather than opting for it on the basis that they had genuine belief in the choice.

    Referendums are not binding.
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    (Original post by CharlesJH)
    rather than cry and moan about it like spoiled children.
    I think that's a really unfair and careless way of putting it. You say that you understand why people are upset about this but from the way you're talking about it, I don't think you really understand the magnitude of this decision. People voicing their concerns about the impact on this decision on the UK economy, on UK science, on the UK environment, on world peace, on the stability of Europe and on the status of their citizenship isn't "crying and moaning like spoiled children". It isn't "spoiled" to protest about this, that's an horrendous thing to say.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    I think that's a really unfair and careless way of putting it. You say that you understand why people are upset about this but from the way you're talking about it, I don't think you really understand the magnitude of this decision. People voicing their concerns about the impact on this decision on the UK economy, on UK science, on the UK environment, on world peace, on the stability of Europe and on the status of their citizenship isn't "crying and moaning like spoiled children". It isn't "spoiled" to protest about this, that's an horrendous thing to say.
    It depends from person to person in my opinion. I can refract that comment I think, I realise that is a stupid way of putting it.
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    (Original post by CharlesJH)
    ...
    Ok two main points:

    1 - Why are you talking about 'losing' as if this is some kind of game? Nobody has won or lost, we simply have a result, and as of yet, nothing more. When the true consequences of leaving unravel, THEN we will find out whether we are 'winners' or 'losers', and by WE I mean all people, on both sides of the debate.

    2 - Remainers must absolutely not shut up. The results of the referendum cannot and should not be changed, but so much change is yet to come and seeing as Remainers make up more or less half of the population, their voices must be heard in decisions going forward.
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    (Original post by oShahpo)
    i) It literally was the fall of the economy (from 5th to 6th), and we haven't even left yet. It hasn't been a couple of days, the future will bring more. Not to mention the downgrading in credit rating. It may not end up being a recession, but only an idiot would deny that our economy is taking a massive hit and will endure more.
    ii)They probably will leave due to the major rift between England and Scotland on this issue. They had a vote not too long ago and they voted to stay, what other massive, material changed could have lead to that prospect in the near future? Yea, none.
    iii) It certainly is not dependent on the EU for its existence, but it will suffer greatly and for what?
    iv) Have you considered the fact that a lot of people are now breaking off Labour for the fact they feel betrayed by them for supporting the EU? Why did Corbyn hesitate to support the EU? I'll tell you, because he knew that this could happen, and it will be the break down of Labour, specially in those places. Do you think there still will be any Brexit supporter of Labour?
    I am not saying all Leave voters are right-wing extremists, but they have no other choice, who'll they vote for? UKIP, the party that got them rid off the EU? The conservative posh toshs? Or Labour the EU luvvies?
    i) come on i know you're a remainer and you want to make your point but this is the exact rhetoric which just makes the left in general look silly when they cling to points which clearly aren't even remotely convincing as the reality. We and France were practically neck and neck and we revolve every so often as it is, when people point these things out its like so what? the pound dropped in wake of a greatly unexpected, uncertain and unprecedented move, no independence or secession has been reflected positively in international markets i defy you to show me one. We've been downgraded by 1 of many creditors and we are not currently on the same level as that god awful Australia, it is not a cause for concern. Our economy has taken a hit and things have stabilised since the BOE offered up assurances, the hit was the biggest we are likely to face, to imply it is the tip of the ice berg is just not true, people know it is happening now, we can prepare for it and create a negotiation with the EU to provide clarity to markets, we won't see sharp adversities like that any time soon.

    II) Now this is a valid point, Polls have suggested otherwise even with the EU result known or expected to be (they were asked if UK leaves EU would you vote independence) google it. There are far more issues for Scotland than simple membership of the EU, conversion of their currency, North Sea Oil, if they left they would possibly need a visa to work in UK? these things are all still valid and it is pretty much the same voting population doing the voting.

    III) We will still trade with the EU, we don't rely on political union for survival. But 60% of our trade is not with the EU and non-eu trade will likely increase now we have complete freedom to explore the market. I believe in 10 years we will be better off net as a result and be far more competitive as a result, especially in relation to a declining EU.

    IV) i don't get your point sorry, are you implying Corbyn is a closet Right wing populist? he ballsed up his job and should resign or be ousted, but then these voters will still not be voting tory any time soon, clearly labour will now adapt to the political reality and put designs to the electorate which are forward facing with the new reality in mind.. this will offer labour the chance to go back to its traditional roots and really push for legislation on workers rights, nationalisation and all these things which were impossible under the EU membership..and clearly this has been the recent labour appetite when they voted corbyn.
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    (Original post by Manchester_123)
    No we will not stop until democracy has been heard. We deserve to stay and should stay. Scotland deserve independence, London deserve independence, NI deserve independence, Cambridge and Oxford deserve independence, Brighton deserve independence...the list goes on.

    Democracy has been destroyed as a result of this referendum and it must be repaired
    Democracy can't be heard while you shout against democracy.
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    (Original post by AverageExcellence)
    Ok sorry ill be more explicit because i thought people were aware of the statements i was alluding to and so could connect the dots of my point.Cameron: "Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking? - "I would never be so rash to make that assumption." : said when asked whether he thought that our membership ensured EU peace and stability.Junker: "Why is it so dangerous? Because no one can foresee what the long-term consequences would be,” Tusk said. “As a historian I fear that Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but also of western political civilisation in its entirety.”outrage by remainers for points the leave campaign didn't actually say, and these people are on record for outrageous scare mongering.. talk about pointing out the spec of dust in your brother's eye when you have a plank in yours
    I knew perfectly well which statements you were referring to, I just wanted you to state them yourself so I know for sure that you've read them through. Because I had an inkling of a hope that you'd realise your mistake in inferring nonexistent messages with those quotes.

    Cameron spoke of a threat to peace. He didn't state that world war three will break out. A threat to peace can mean anything from angry ambassadors, to riots, to nuclear warfare. But you, nor I, know what he meant by this warning. The evidence is certainly not enough to justify the claim that Cameron believed in an imminent war.

    Juncker* stated that this was a dangerous vote, and he's absolutely right. We cannot foresee the long-term consequences. Now it's a bit of a stretch to state that he said this:
    JUNKER: A VOTE FOR LEAVE WILL BE THE END OF WESTERN CIVILISATION
    Oh dear, did you get your quotes mixed up? Because, as you said, Tusk mentioned the civilization quote. Juncker's spokesperson said that Juncker had conveyed the 'same message' but it's unclear as to what message they are referring to. It's likely to be the one about the long-term consequences, which is rational.
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    (Original post by elen90)
    - 16/17 year olds were not included, despite being in the demographic affected for the greatest period of time.
    - The referendum never should have existed because the decision on leaving the EU was not ours to make (this opens up another trail of arguments but I've already dealt with this, I'll link you to those posts if need be).
    - The 'majority' was 52% of a 72% turnout of eligible voters.
    - EU citizens who have lived here for years and contributed greatly to the economy were deprived of the vote.
    - The Leave campaign has founded itself on misinformation and lies, spearheaded by an opportunist who never wanted the actual Brexit result.
    - Many of those who voted Leave were the disillusioned working classes making a protest vote, rather than opting for it on the basis that they had genuine belief in the choice.

    Referendums are not binding.
    Surely new born babies are the ones going to be affected for longer.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Surely new born babies are the ones going to be affected for longer.
    Well, yeah, and they're in roughly the same demographic as 16 year olds but you seriously can't be implying that I believe in newborn babies voting :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by elen90)
    Well, yeah, and they're in roughly the same demographic as 16 year olds but you seriously can't be implying that I believe in newborn babies voting :rolleyes:
    No but the same argument can be made for them as well as 16-17 year olds and the cut off point had to be somewhere and it was at 18 like normal.
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    (Original post by elen90)
    I knew perfectly well which statements you were referring to, I just wanted you to state them yourself so I know for sure that you've read them through. Because I had an inkling of a hope that you'd realise your mistake in inferring nonexistent messages with those quotes.

    Cameron spoke of a threat to peace. He didn't state that world war three will break out. A threat to peace can mean anything from angry ambassadors, to riots, to nuclear warfare. But you, nor I, know what he meant by this warning. The evidence is certainly not enough to justify the claim that Cameron believed in an imminent war.

    Juncker* stated that this was a dangerous vote, and he's absolutely right. We cannot foresee the long-term consequences. Now it's a bit of a stretch to state that he said this:


    Oh dear, did you get your quotes mixed up? Because, as you said, Tusk mentioned the civilization quote. Juncker's spokesperson said that Juncker had conveyed the 'same message' but it's unclear as to what message they are referring to. It's likely to be the one about the long-term consequences, which is rational.
    Lol are you really trying to insult peoples' intelligence by implying 'threat to peace on the continent' could mean angry ambassadors? you can't see the implication given the context and history of Europe?

    The quote by Tusk/Junker speaks for itself, it doesn't need explaining that brexit will not lead to the collapse of western civilisation.
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    (Original post by AverageExcellence)
    i) come on i know you're a remainer and you want to make your point but this is the exact rhetoric which just makes the left in general look silly when they cling to points which clearly aren't even remotely convincing as the reality. We and France were practically neck and neck and we revolve every so often as it is, when people point these things out its like so what? the pound dropped in wake of a greatly unexpected, uncertain and unprecedented move, no independence or secession has been reflected positively in international markets i defy you to show me one. We've been downgraded by 1 of many creditors and we are not currently on the same level as that god awful Australia, it is not a cause for concern. Our economy has taken a hit and things have stabilised since the BOE offered up assurances, the hit was the biggest we are likely to face, to imply it is the tip of the ice berg is just not true, people know it is happening now, we can prepare for it and create a negotiation with the EU to provide clarity to markets, we won't see sharp adversities like that any time soon.

    II) Now this is a valid point, Polls have suggested otherwise even with the EU result known or expected to be (they were asked if UK leaves EU would you vote independence) google it. There are far more issues for Scotland than simple membership of the EU, conversion of their currency, North Sea Oil, if they left they would possibly need a visa to work in UK? these things are all still valid and it is pretty much the same voting population doing the voting.

    III) We will still trade with the EU, we don't rely on political union for survival. But 60% of our trade is not with the EU and non-eu trade will likely increase now we have complete freedom to explore the market. I believe in 10 years we will be better off net as a result and be far more competitive as a result, especially in relation to a declining EU.

    IV) i don't get your point sorry, are you implying Corbyn is a closet Right wing populist? he ballsed up his job and should resign or be ousted, but then these voters will still not be voting tory any time soon, clearly labour will now adapt to the political reality and put designs to the electorate which are forward facing with the new reality in mind.. this will offer labour the chance to go back to its traditional roots and really push for legislation on workers rights, nationalisation and all these things which were impossible under the EU membership..and clearly this has been the recent labour appetite when they voted corbyn.
    Point IV) I basically mean that voters are more likely now to vote with UKIP, the party that is most aligned with their lines of thought now, than Labour. I could very well be wrong, and I hope so, but I think that's the prospect.
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    (Original post by elen90)
    - 16/17 year olds were not included, despite being in the demographic affected for the greatest period of time.
    I personally do not believe that under 18s should be given the vote because we do not contribute much to society in the first place. I am not going to say the argument of "young people getting more manipulated", because that is ****ing stupid in itself, older people get manipulated as well and are drooling idiots. However, I am not entirely sure of how our future will be affected within this referendum but I still feel if we were to allow people to vote of lower ages in one election rather than all elections, it is open to be called unfair. Even if you can argue a good case which I can agree with and perhaps change my mind, if we are to call a second referendum we should keep the same conditions of the previous one (assuming that you believe that 16-17 year olds should be given the vote for the new referendum, in which case that you don't it does not apply to you), but even then one election shouldn't be different to another to me. We can't just have 16-17 year olds vote in one election and not vote in another in my opinion.

    (Original post by elen90)
    - The referendum never should have existed because the decision on leaving the EU was not ours to make (this opens up another trail of arguments but I've already dealt with this, I'll link you to those posts if need be).
    We do not make every decision of what the government does and in some cases we shouldn't. As I mentioned earlier though, I do not know the source of the referendum happening so I will not comment deeply on this. If you want to send me a link I would be happy to look at it.

    (Original post by elen90)
    - The 'majority' was 52% of a 72% turnout of eligible voters.
    I'm not sure what your point entirely is with this one. 52% may be just over the 50% majority limit, but it is still 1 million + people.

    (Original post by elen90)
    - EU citizens who have lived here for years and contributed greatly to the economy were deprived of the vote.
    It then again depends on how long people have lived within the country and election laws must be abided. A reform of election laws could solve this issue for future voting.


    (Original post by elen90)
    - The Leave campaign has founded itself on misinformation and lies, spearheaded by an opportunist who never wanted the actual Brexit result.
    I can agree with some of this statement. The campagins were full of misinformation, but some of remain could be full of misinformation as well in some people's regard. However, despite the fact that the whole referendum itself was full of misinformation coming from both sides, I do not think the 17410742 people ALL voted because of any misinformation they heard, but perhaps their own opinion from other arguments, or their own opinion on the system of the Eu itself. 17410742 people are not going to look at a huge ****ing bus and say "Oh well, that's going to be my reason to vote leave!". Some people may do this, in which case they are an idiot, but some people who voted leave did not just listen to misinformation.

    (Original post by elen90)
    - Many of those who voted Leave were the disillusioned working classes making a protest vote, rather than opting for it on the basis that they had genuine belief in the choice.
    I know people who have voted because they just want David Cameron out which I do not believe is a valid reason to have voted leave and that other variables should have been considered. However, if you were to exclude those "disillusioned" voters, that would be undemocratic as well.

    Sorry if that was lengthy, if you want to argue against anything please feel free to do so.
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    (Original post by oShahpo)
    Point IV) I basically mean that voters are more likely now to vote with UKIP, the party that is most aligned with their lines of thought now, than Labour. I could very well be wrong, and I hope so, but I think that's the prospect.
    UKIP don't have much of a future now, they have achieved their ultimate goal, the North are always strong labour voters and will continue to be, you only have to see their vote in 2015, this phenomenon hasn't just materialised spontaneously in a year it has been an issue for decades.
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    (Original post by abc:))
    Ok two main points:

    1 - Why are you talking about 'losing' as if this is some kind of game? Nobody has won or lost, we simply have a result, and as of yet, nothing more. When the true consequences of leaving unravel, THEN we will find out whether we are 'winners' or 'losers', and by WE I mean all people, on both sides of the debate.

    2 - Remainers must absolutely not shut up. The results of the referendum cannot and should not be changed, but so much change is yet to come and seeing as Remainers make up more or less half of the population, their voices must be heard in decisions going forward.
    I am not talking about it as if it is a game, it certainly isn't. I have said that "Leave has won, remain has lost" because leave got the majority and remain did not. Leave has "won" the majority of the vote. You would not say this within a general election because there is no definite majority, but in this case there is a definite majority. I know other people who have said this as well and I suppose it depends on what kind of language a person uses.

    Also, I am just going to use this post to say that as I have read other posts, "shut the **** up" is probably a poor choice of words which I could possibly refract. All voices must be heard and be involved within discussion, but the winning vote should still remain (haha I'm unfunny) as leave, even if you're unhappy with it (I am unhappy with the result in some ways).
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    (Original post by oShahpo)
    Yea, but not a single remain voter based their opinion on WW3, the fall of the Western civilisation (both of which may very well happen in the near future if the EU falls), the Irish conflict, nor for Gibraltar (which again may very will happen).

    We voted remain to avoid the fall of the economy (which is happening), to avoid the breaking of the union (which is happening), to avoid the fall of London as the commerce centre of Europe (which is happening), to avoid the rise of populist right (which is happening), what else do you need?
    How do you know that ? Did you ask every single remain voter why they voted ? I doubted since i know one who did so because a fit girl did !
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    (Original post by oShahpo)
    Yea, but not a single remain voter based their opinion on WW3, the fall of the Western civilisation (both of which may very well happen in the near future if the EU falls), the Irish conflict, nor for Gibraltar (which again may very will happen).

    We voted remain to avoid the fall of the economy (which is happening), to avoid the breaking of the union (which is happening), to avoid the fall of London as the commerce centre of Europe (which is happening), to avoid the rise of populist right (which is happening), what else do you need?
    My cousins boyfriend did
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    My cousins boyfriend did
    Oh, I was wrong then..
 
 
 
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