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Wales Leave leader: "We need EU levels of funding from England" Watch

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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    It's free movement of services which is most important which none of these other countries have AFAIK.

    http://infacts.org/brexit-threatens-...vices-exports/
    If they are giving free trade out like cherries which is clearly beneficial for them then im sure that free movement of services can be negotiated, but we'll see what happens, its not like selling our services is purely our benefit, many EU nations depend on them also. But there will be strongs attached, as long as they don't impose laws and free movement on everyone.

    http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/doc...doc_124242.pdf

    they offer algeria very generous movement of services albeit not completely free. Can we get a better deal than Algeria?
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    (Original post by snailsareslimy)
    As much as I rant about the subsidies, they're absolutely essential for farmers to actually survive. My dad is a very small farmer, he doesn't get much at all, a few thousand, and it keeps us from going broke and breaking even. The industry is an absolute mess, full of greedy farmers and overproduction, lowering the price of goods and forcing hundreds of people out of the business.

    I would have been much more happy with CAP reform (at the moment it depends on how much land you have, which is ridiculous- people who own hills of useless scrubland get £100,000 because they have lots of hectares (but might only have a few hundred sheep), whereas a lowland farmer, where they own more stock in relation to land but due to this, they get a lot less. So while these two farmers both might own the same number of animals, one might get (rough estimations) £8,000, the other might get £100,000. How is that fair?)

    I honestly just can't see an EU dependent government investing in the industry. We'll be so broke from leaving that they'll plough all the money into other sectors, so agriculture (and Wales/Cornwall) will be left out in the cold. I hope I'm wrong though. I really do.

    #rant.
    Everyone needs a good rant now and again.

    I'll admit my earlier comment of "**** them" in relation to Wales and Cornwall was a bit rash but they're in no position to be complaining. The EU was committed to re-balancing through the Regional Development Fund whereas successive UK governments have facilitated an unbalanced economy centered around London, so I can honestly see other regions ending up worse off at the end of it all.

    We've let enough industries go down the toilet without farming going along with them and destroying rural areas as well. Plus we're a lot more susceptible to events beyond our control if we rely completely on food imports so I'm firmly in favour of maintaining subsidies.

    I've always had the impression that it's the French who come out on top with the CAP?
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    (Original post by AverageExcellence)
    If they are giving free trade out like cherries which is clearly beneficial for them then im sure that free movement of services can be negotiated, but we'll see what happens, its not like selling our services is purely our benefit, many EU nations depend on them also. But there will be strongs attached, as long as they don't impose laws and free movement on everyone.

    http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/doc...doc_124242.pdf

    they offer algeria very generous movement of services albeit not completely free. Can we get a better deal than Algeria?
    It's very likely that we will. The last few days haven't been encouraging but I've never subscribed to the prophecies of eternal doom that have been peddled. We'll have too wait and see but I personally think we'll end up joining EFTA which makes leaving almost pointless as it's effectively a diet version of the EU anyway.

    It's far too late to be reading a 90 page dossier on trade legislation.
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    i hope the tories punish them, and they can sink or swin based ontheir merit like the english have to.
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    (Original post by Sisuphos)
    You don't just remove subsidies. People have built their entire lives on subsidised industries. What are they gonna do? change careers in their 40s and 50s?
    There is always local pain when creative destruction occurs but on the whole the majority find new work and nationally we will be fine. That being said we could remove subsidies over a period of 5-10 years so that those dependent on them can find a solution to survive.

    (Original post by snailsareslimy)
    As much as I rant about the subsidies, they're absolutely essential for farmers to actually survive. My dad is a very small farmer, he doesn't get much at all, a few thousand, and it keeps us from going broke and breaking even. The industry is an absolute mess, full of greedy farmers and overproduction, lowering the price of goods and forcing hundreds of people out of the business.

    I would have been much more happy with CAP reform (at the moment it depends on how much land you have, which is ridiculous- people who own hills of useless scrubland get £100,000 because they have lots of hectares (but might only have a few hundred sheep), whereas a lowland farmer, where they own more stock in relation to land but due to this, they get a lot less. So while these two farmers both might own the same number of animals, one might get (rough estimations) £8,000, the other might get £100,000. How is that fair?)

    I honestly just can't see an EU dependent government investing in the industry. We'll be so broke from leaving that they'll plough all the money into other sectors, so agriculture (and Wales/Cornwall) will be left out in the cold. I hope I'm wrong though. I really do.

    #rant.
    Without wanting to sound horrible this is a perfect example. Your acknowledging that there is a price signal that overproduction is occurring but your still producing the same good and essentially being kept on life support by the taxpayer.

    Without subsidies (though it's interesting to hear how flawed the current system is) you'll see that zombie firms will exit the market. With that being said, as i said above i'd like to see an automation fund that allows farmers like you to decrease your marginal cost of production or make the transition to another good whether that be peas or bio-oil.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Without wanting to sound horrible this is a perfect example. Your acknowledging that there is a price signal that overproduction is occurring but your still producing the same good and essentially being kept on life support by the taxpayer.

    Without subsidies (though it's interesting to hear how flawed the current system is) you'll see that zombie firms will exit the market. With that being said, as i said above i'd like to see an automation fund that allows farmers like you to decrease your marginal cost of production or make the transition to another good whether that be peas or bio-oil.
    Overproduction wouldn't be such an issue if we had EU countries to trade with, but unless good trade deals are established, that won't happen anymore. I 100% agree that things need to change, I'd like to see quotas being brought back where you would be penalised if you produced more than you had bought into, and these were shared fairly across small and larger agricultural businesses alike. But all of this could have happened while we stayed in the EU, and used those absolutely essential subsidies to keep everyone afloat while big changes occurred. I also fear that without EU influence, corners will be cut and the lives of the animals will suffer. People may turn to unethical ways of farming which are intensive, purely to make a profit. That absolutely cannot happen.

    Those industries may well work in England, where farmers own a proportionally larger hectarage of land, but those industries will not work in Northern Ireland, Scotland or Wales. Farmers have much less land, and for industries like bio-oil to be worth the expenses and change, you'd need to be producing a lot of it. Anyone in these countries who does own the hectares owns hill land, where it's absolutely unusable for crops and only suitable for hill sheep. Essentially, the large landowning farmer in England will be able to grow and attain more profits, and smaller farmers will go bankrupt. Exactly what the EU was trying to avoid.

    That being said, the entire industry is a mess and no one has ever really stepped in to try make any changes. It's never been a priority in Westminster, and it certainly won't be now.
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    Kind of just amalgamates the naivety of the Leave supporters
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    (Original post by Sisuphos)
    You don't just remove subsidies. People have built their entire lives on subsidised industries. What are they gonna do? change careers in their 40s and 50s?
    New Zealand abolished all farming subsidies and today they have one of the most efficient agriculture industry in the world.

    Also it wasn't phased in gradually was done near overnight.
 
 
 
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