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Do you think we will actually end up leaving the eu? Watch

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    (Original post by Shumaya)
    The referendum wasn't exactly a paradigm of democracy. The leave campaign won by deliberately misleading voters. On the daily mail comment section, brexiters have now realised that the government will most probably seek to stay in the single market, which means that free movement of people is here to stay. They are claiming that this is not democracy and I agree with them. It's not just remain voters who are unhappy with the outcome.
    Actually according to a ComRes poll, more remain voters are happy than leave voters unhappy.

    And let's stop this lies thing as if it was completely one sided. Where are the 3,000,000 jobs lost? Where is Mr. Osborne's emergency budget? What happened to families being £4,300 worse off?

    Leavers didn't vote just to get rid of free movement. Personally, I would have liked to see an Australian style points system. However even if we keep free movement i'm happy that we'll at least e able to control our laws and negotiate our trade deals with other countries.
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    (Original post by ChargingStag)
    Who have we had so far? I know J K Rowling and Ricky Gervais have expressed their dismay but it would be interesting to see who has actually encouraged people to reject democracy.
    James Corden has asked people to sign the petition (living in America ironically). And a couple of these 'vlogger' people have too so a load of 12 years olds will have signed it. And when they grow up I dread to see what they'll be like on the wrong side of democracy.
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    (Original post by Samiz)
    Actually according to a ComRes poll, more remain voters are happy than leave voters unhappy.

    And let's stop this lies thing as if it was completely one sided. Where are the 3,000,000 jobs lost? Where is Mr. Osborne's emergency budget? What happened to families being £4,300 worse off?

    Leavers didn't vote just to get rid of free movement. Personally, I would have liked to see an Australian style points system. However even if we keep free movement i'm happy that we'll at least e able to control our laws and negotiate our trade deals with other countries.
    Are you being serious? The vote was a few days ago and we haven't even invoked article 50 yet so of course none of that has happened.

    Yes, people had many different reasons to leave. I nearly voted leave ay my reasons had nothing to to with immigration. I'd be happy with a trade deal involving free movement too. But many people did vote because of immigration. The leave campaign used these people for votes with no intention of stopping/controlling immigration.
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    (Original post by jeremy1988)
    A little off-topic, but... this sentence doesn't make any sense as written.

    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de...glish/paradigm

    A plebiscite is definitely a democratic paradigm. Because it is "a typical example or pattern" of democracy. In fact, it's probably one of the purest and oldest forms. Many people over time have said that Republics are better than pure Democracy because the pure form leads to mob rule. You might agree with those people, but you can't claim that a referendum or plebiscite isn't a paradigm of democracy.
    I know that referendums are democratic, I just don't think this one was. For true democracy, voters need to be informed and aware of what they're voting for. In this case, the leave campaign outright lied in order to get votes from people, and just a day after the referendum they were already backtracking. It's not even a matter of 'I promised that but I now realise that that's not possible'. They had no intention of delivering the things that arguably led them to victory. (e.g controlled immigration and £350 million to the NHS).
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    (Original post by Samiz)
    Actually according to a ComRes poll, more remain voters are happy than leave voters unhappy.

    And let's stop this lies thing as if it was completely one sided. Where are the 3,000,000 jobs lost? Where is Mr. Osborne's emergency budget? What happened to families being £4,300 worse off?

    Leavers didn't vote just to get rid of free movement. Personally, I would have liked to see an Australian style points system. However even if we keep free movement i'm happy that we'll at least e able to control our laws and negotiate our trade deals with other countries.
    When we negotiate trade deals they're going to be mostly with the EU. Obviously as they're our neighbouring countries and it's a lot easier and cheaper to trade with those closest to us.
    It's going to be hard to negotiate deals without leverage with other countries that put us in a better position than we are now.
    We're going to end up in the same position regarding trade with EU just without the power we used to have. So what was the point in leaving?


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    (Original post by splashywill)
    Yeah we're going to leave. I'm optimistic that it'll open up a lot off possibilities for us in the future, such as potential free travel and work in countries such as canada or australia. Our economy won't be effected for long, we will build better trading tariffs with emerging countries and our economy will be better off. People need to chill out a bit.
    I think it's likely there will be new agreements with Australia; the Liberal Party (the conservatives) are quite Anglophile (excepting the Prime Minister, Malcolm Turnbull, who is a republican).

    Australia is quite deft at negotiating free trade agreements (they have FTAs with the United States, Japan, South Korea, China and New Zealand) and there will be strong pressure on the conservative side to negotiate such an agreement.

    I'm sceptical of the likelihood of any free movement agreement with Australia as it would undermine Australia's current immigration policy (particularly as it would allow millions of recent immigrants to Britain to flood into Australia contrary to the points system). But there probably will be some easing up on visa restrictions
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    (Original post by thad33)
    When we negotiate trade deals they're going to be mostly with the EU. Obviously as they're our neighbouring countries and it's a lot easier and cheaper to trade with those closest to us.
    It's going to be hard to negotiate deals without leverage with other countries that put us in a better position than we are now.
    Err, our leverage is access to the UK market. Once out of the EU it will be much easier to negotiate as the European Union finds it extremely difficult to corral all 28 members states to agree on the terms. That's why the EU doesn't have any free trade agreements with major countries.

    Australia has FTAs with the United States, Japan, South Korea, China and New Zealand. In fact, the three Asian FTAs were concluded simultaneously and only took about two years of substantive negotiations. It will be years before Australia has an FTA with the EU, but an FTA could be concluded with Britain fairly quickly.

    Given Australia's free trade orientation it's unlikely they will pass up that opportunity particularly given it will give them the sort of market access for their agricultural products that they lost when Britain joined the Common Market.

    I find it perplexing that people like you genuinely seem to despise your own country and have almost no faith that it's capable of managing its own affairs. It is kind-of pathetic.
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    (Original post by Shumaya)
    I know that referendums are democratic, I just don't think this one was. For true democracy, voters need to be informed and aware of what they're voting for.
    The leave camp was absolutely aware of what it was voting for; to leave the European Union.

    In this case, the leave campaign outright lied in order to get votes from people
    Just as the Remain campaign lied. Osborne's punishment budget was a howler, and the claims that the NHS would collapse if the UK left the EU was an outrageous lie.

    It was a hard-fought campaign and both sides put a bit of pepper on the gloves. But the fact is that in a democracy you can never really know the exact reason why any particular voter opted for the option they did. This isn't like buying a car and then finding out there's something wrong with it; it's an exercise of popular sovereignty on a major political question.

    And you do come across as a bit ****ing hypocritical (and slightly hysterical) to shriek about the lies of the Leave campaign and ignore the lies of the Remain campaign.

    They had no intention of delivering the things that arguably led them to victory. (e.g controlled immigration and £350 million to the NHS).
    You are slightly confused. At no point did the official leave campaign promise to spend all of the money saved from the EU budget on the NHS, and in any case this isn't a general election fought on differing policies but a referendum on a very specific question

    I'm afraid you're going to have to grow up. Your side lost, it just comes across as immature and flaky (and dishonest) to now demand the result be overturned
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Quite simply - if we end up with a better deal, everyone will want one. You don't give a lolly to the kid that throws his rattle out of the pram. Joining the single market is not a better deal. We complain about any aspects of the single market but at least last week we had a say in its implementation. Now we are at the mercy of whatever the EU dictates to us. So if they decided to ban fishing in the North and Irish seas, we could do nothing about it but protest from the side lines.
    erm you do realise that the fishing industry has been destroyed by the EU partly because they have opened up our waters to other EU countries
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    (Original post by Shumaya)
    But many people did vote because of immigration.
    ...and?
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    (Original post by Shumaya)
    Are you being serious? The vote was a few days ago and we haven't even invoked article 50 yet so of course none of that has happened.

    Yes, people had many different reasons to leave. I nearly voted leave ay my reasons had nothing to to with immigration. I'd be happy with a trade deal involving free movement too. But many people did vote because of immigration. The leave campaign used these people for votes with no intention of stopping/controlling immigration.
    It hasn't needed to happen, the £4,300 worse off and the 3,000,000 job losses were called as lies by Factcheck/Reality Check during the campaign.

    And the biggest lie was the remainers was about, 'we know the EU isn't perfect, but let's remain in the EU and reform it from inside'. When the day before the vote, Mr Juncker said that there would be no more reform, no more negotiation, and the deal David Cameron got was the maximum deal Britain would get.

    All I'm saying is there were lies on both sides. And we don't know how immigration will work until the government decides what they want. I'd be disappointed if we couldn't have an Australian style points system but immigration was merely one of many factors why I voted.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Quite simply - if we end up with a better deal, everyone will want one.
    And if they give us a punishment deal their economy will collapse. That's why German industry has ordered Merkel to negotiate a reasonable deal and in turn Merkel has told the hysterical boys like Juncker to calm down and that this will have to be negotiated in a good, co-operative atmosphere.

    Now we are at the mercy of whatever the EU dictates to us.
    Nope. Anything they do to punish us harms them too, and the European economy is much more fragile than the British economy. And we don't actually need a trade deal to sell goods in another country.

    So if they decided to ban fishing in the North and Irish seas, we could do nothing about it but protest from the side lines.
    Calm down. The EU has no power to ban us fishing in our own territorial waters. The law of the sea conventions confer no such power on the European Union. Any attempt to do so will have as much legal force as the British parliament purporting to pass a law banning smoking on the streets of Paris
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    So bizarre they have wheeled out Blair I mean seriously the man is a war criminal
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    (Original post by YellowWallpaper)
    Yes, definitely.

    It will be an economic disaster for the UK and we will feel the struggle for many years (well respected economists have told us as much). Unfortunately, democracy has spoken and instead of complaining and petition signing, we simply have to accept it. I was an avid campaigner for the remain side, and my fustration is reserved for those selfish, idiotic young voters (18-35) who couldn't be arsed to vote. Instead of complaning about old people, I think our contempt should be for those who abnegated their civic duty.
    in the Times today it says that only 35% of 18-24 year olds voted..... what on earth were the others doing that was so important ?

    :mad:
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    (Original post by thad33)
    When we negotiate trade deals they're going to be mostly with the EU. Obviously as they're our neighbouring countries and it's a lot easier and cheaper to trade with those closest to us.
    It's going to be hard to negotiate deals without leverage with other countries that put us in a better position than we are now.
    We're going to end up in the same position regarding trade with EU just without the power we used to have. So what was the point in leaving?


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    If you're talking about trade, the point was that we cannot negotiate our own trade deals with other countries. I don't get how our trade deals will 'mostly' be with the EU. We will only have 1 trade deal with the EU, we cannot have any more? It's the EU, not all the specific member states.

    And if it's going to be so hard to negotiate with other countries, why do countries as small as Iceland have trade deals worth about 5 times more than the EU's? Why does Switzerland have trade deals with 7 of the UK's top top 10 non EU exports, whilst the EU only has 2? Why have America, Canada, Ghana, Iceland, Switzerland, Ghana, New Zealand, Australia, South Korea, Brazil, all reached out to Britain speaking of their wishes to maintain and push for close trade relations with the UK?

    When we leave the EU, in terms of trade we will be free to trade with the world and not restricted by the EU; we will certainly be more prosperous in trading.
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    Also it really annoys me that the awful George Osbourne is still in office he should be out
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    (Original post by YellowWallpaper)
    What are these contingencies. I doubt they can actually do much to make up for the chaos caused by the plumetting of the pound sterling.
    Sterling at a lower level means that our exporters are more competitive. It also means that British goods are more attractive to UK buyers. That is a double bonus.

    The former BoE governor is optimistic:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...s-former-bank/

    and has previously predicted the demise of the euro:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...one-is-doomed/
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    (Original post by the bear)
    in the Times today it says that only 35% of 18-24 year olds voted..... what on earth were the others doing that was so important ?
    Turning half the Somerset levels into a quagmire.
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    just a tory thing being put to public, nothing radical would happen.
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    (Original post by thad33)
    It's going to be hard to negotiate deals without leverage with other countries that put us in a better position than we are now.

    We're going to end up in the same position regarding trade with EU just without the power we used to have. So what was the point in leaving?
    This is nonsense. We have a negative trade balance with the EU, and a positive one with non-EU countries. Any punitive tariffs that the EU countries erect against us would be worse for them, and we are already proving we can trade successfully with the rest of the world, even without trade deals. What's to fear?
 
 
 
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