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    How could you possibly compare North Korea and Scotland? One has one of the world's worst human rights records I've ever seen and the latter has a good record of human rights.
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    (Original post by cbblitz)
    Scotland will be fine. People act like there's a chance of Scotland turning into a third world country or something.
    If Scotland was an independent country it would have the largest deficit in the European Union. I think there's a very reasonable case to make that an independent Scotland would be a financial basketcase in European terms.

    Also, as a part of what I am going to call the younger generation because I'm refusing to acknowledge being an adult, Scotland being free from England would be brilliant. The day when I don't have to fill out a form and call myself "British" or from the "United Kingdom" will be a great day. Most of the time my option is "United Kingdom, Ireland, Germany, Other" and I'll click Other and type Scotland in.
    That's just blatantly daft.
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    (Original post by elitepower)
    Scotland sees England as the tyrant telling it what to do, not the EU, and wants to separate from that.
    Not according to over two million Scots in the greatest democratic exercise our country ever saw.

    I don't see how Scotland voting in favour of staying in the EU then being dragged out is democracy - maybe you can explain? Surely democracy is giving the people what they want and Scotland wants independence.
    Perhaps, it's just that you clearly haven't considered what "the people" mean in this context. The United States fought secession on a belief that the will of the people was paramount, because in a democracy, the demos - the community of the political entity - decides.

    (Original post by elitepower)
    Oh you are having a laugh. Scotland can survive independence. Sure it won't be pretty but Brexit has screwed it anyway.
    "Here's a bad thing - that's going to happen, so let's just not worry about subjecting ourselves to an even worse thing".

    Yes, Scotland can "survive". Ethiopia survives. Somaliland survives. It doesn't mean we won't suffer a huge decline in our living standards.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    If Scotland was an independent country it would have the largest deficit in the European Union. I think there's a very reasonable case to make that an independent Scotland would be a financial basketcase in European terms.

    That's just blatantly daft.
    Why is it daft? Because you identify as British? I despise being identified as British. I have no cultural identity which relates to England or Wales. The history of my country has no positive history with the history of Wales. Scotland isn't represented by anything in England what so ever. Is it so wrong that I want the national identity of the country where I'm from to be separate from a country I hold no loyalty of passion for?

    Scotland would survive just fine. People are telling you Brexit will destroy the world just like they said it with Scottish independence. There is so much red tape that the only people taking hit are millionaires in the stocks.

    (Original post by The Roast)
    Yeah, you'll be filling a form calling yourself 'European' in a few years
    Makes no sense. There is a zero percent change that every country in Europe sacrifices their cultural identity because they are in the EU.

    (Original post by Gora The Explorer)
    I've never understood this meme that Rangers are an English team. As someone who doesn't really care it looks to me that Rangers are a chavvy Scottish team and Celtic are a chavvy Irish team. If I were Scottish I would support Hearts or something with a modicum of class.
    I'm not REALLY blaming Rangers supporters. I'm blaming the scum that bring their Union Jacks to a Scottish football game (as bad as Scotsmen waving the tricolour in the name of Celtic). Rangers fans walked down the street, signing British anti-Scotland songs, ripping the Scotland flag out of the hands of a crying girl because it didn't represent England like their identity does. Those people can fk right off and if they want to be English so bad they can fk off to it.

    Hearts with a modicum of class? You definitely don't really care haha. Hearts and Hibs aren't exactly wearing kid gloves either.

    Also, "shut the door on your way out", lmfao. The English were straight up begging Scotland to stay with their better together campaign. Cameron acting like Scotland and England are besties and ****.

    "Step 6 - Celtic supporters vote in favour of their country". Well, would voting in favour of your own country be a negative thing? Regardless, I don't feel Celtic had much of a stake in it. A few knobs might have said "Rangers want to be British, so let's vote against whatever they want" but generally I don't think Celtic fans were too invested because of a football team. I personally don't get it. I always thought, Rangers, Celtic, Hearts, whoever...we didn't want to be English. We cheer England getting cuffed in the World Cup and are proud of where we're from. Apparently...55% disagreed.
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    (Original post by Josb)
    They can leave, but they will never be admitted in the EU. Here is what the Spanish Prime Minister has said today:

    "I want to be very clear: Scotland does not have the competence to negotiate with the European Union. Spain opposes any negotiation by anyone other than the government of the United Kingdom,” he told a news conference following a summit of European leaders in Brussels.

    “I am extremely against it, the treaties are extremely against it and I believe everyone is extremely against it. If the United Kingdom leaves … Scotland leaves."

    That is not very encouraging... *http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...hy-little-hope * * * * * * *
    * *
    And other sources sound more promising **http://stv.tv/news/politics/1358976-...nd-joining-eu/ * *Its uncharted territory.*

    But mark my words, as someone here, this isn't going to die down and be forgiven in Scotland. This has poisoned any hope of a positive relationship and its the sort of anger that happened to Nick Clegg. People will remember and the first chance they get, They. Will. Hit. Back. The days of the UK are numbered, whatever those numbers are, this will be remembered when the chance arises and it will push people against England.**


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    (Original post by Josb)
    It's one paper by one economist. It's not the official position of the bank.
    *
    *
    Thats still a hell of a lot better than Leave voters pretending Scotland won't leave because. It reflects the situation up here. Am I totally convinced on the timeline? No, but it fits a lot better with reality than what you people are saying.*
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    (Original post by L i b)
    Not according to over two million Scots in the greatest democratic exercise our country ever saw.
    *
    I hope you aren't referring to the 2014 refererndum because pretending that is relevant now is silly. The UK has changed, Scotland's opinion has changed. It will leave. People who voted to stay regret it. The argument for staying is incredibly weaker. They will get the chance and they will leave.*

    (Original post by L i b)
    "Here's a bad thing - that's going to happen, so let's just not worry about subjecting ourselves to an even worse thing".

    Yes, Scotland can "survive". Ethiopia survives. Somaliland survives. It doesn't mean we won't suffer a huge decline in our living standards.
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    So the UK leaving the EU is a massive "achievement" according to you and its so much better off but Scotland can't leave without being reduced to Ethiopia standards? But its Remain people making crazy statements
    *
    Brexit WILL cause a huge decline. There is no faith left in the union. Whats to stop the UK making another huge decision Scotland hates next year and the year after and the year after? The independence party now has a huge event where it can go "remember that time England made a colossal mistake and make you suffer for it". There is no defending that. This is a snapping point. They might carry on (although they are not going to do it quietly - rallies are occurring and well supported) but the battles over. They are leaving, it doesn't matter how long it is delayed or takes, Scotland has been lost over this. **
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    (Original post by elitepower)
    *
    I hope you aren't referring to the 2014 refererndum because pretending that is relevant now is silly. The UK has changed, Scotland's opinion has changed. It will leave. People who voted to stay regret it. The argument for staying is incredibly weaker. They will get the chance and they will leave.*

    *
    *
    So the UK leaving the EU is a massive "achievement" according to you and its so much better off but Scotland can't leave without being reduced to Ethiopia standards? But its Remain people making crazy statements
    *
    Brexit WILL cause a huge decline. There is no faith left in the union. Whats to stop the UK making another huge decision Scotland hates next year and the year after and the year after? The independence party now has a huge event where it can go "remember that time England made a colossal mistake and make you suffer for it". There is no defending that. This is a snapping point. They might carry on (although they are not going to do it quietly - rallies are occurring and well supported) but the battles over. They are leaving, it doesn't matter how long it is delayed or takes, Scotland has been lost over this. **
    The UK would be better off without Scotland. The Scots get by far the best deal under the Barnett formula. A quick Google tells me that it accounts for 85% of the Scottish Parliament's budget. Basically, Scotland is funded almost entirely by England. Good luck with your independent dream. You aren't welcome back with your tail between your legs when it all goes horribly wrong.
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    (Original post by elitepower)
    *
    I hope you aren't referring to the 2014 refererndum because pretending that is relevant now is silly. The UK has changed, Scotland's opinion has changed. It will leave. People who voted to stay regret it. The argument for staying is incredibly weaker. They will get the chance and they will leave.*

    *
    *
    So the UK leaving the EU is a massive "achievement" according to you and its so much better off but Scotland can't leave without being reduced to Ethiopia standards? But its Remain people making crazy statements
    *
    Brexit WILL cause a huge decline. There is no faith left in the union. Whats to stop the UK making another huge decision Scotland hates next year and the year after and the year after? The independence party now has a huge event where it can go "remember that time England made a colossal mistake and make you suffer for it". There is no defending that. This is a snapping point. They might carry on (although they are not going to do it quietly - rallies are occurring and well supported) but the battles over. They are leaving, it doesn't matter how long it is delayed or takes, Scotland has been lost over this. **
    What does Scotland reasonably expect? For them and England to always agree on everything, all the time, and if they don't then the English should bow to Scotland's wishes?
    A small swing towards Remain in England could have resulted in a situation where England voted leave but was kept in the EU by the Scottish. Not one tear would be shed.
    Also the SNP can't argue that Brexit is a mistake because it will cause a fall in living standards, then advocate independence which will do even more damage.*
    On top of that, either the UK and EU impose tariffs and restrictions on each other in which case independent Scotland*is screwed as England is by far its biggest trade partner, or they don't in which case the argument that Brexit will destroy the UK economy is negated.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    The Trump card(no pun intended) is the national debt which belongs to the UK govt, so if they go independent they aren't obliged to take on their share of it.
    It is no Trump card, as if they did that you simply don't hand over any other assets such as navy ships (they can cost over a billion £ each), also, just make some of the islands British islands, then they lose the oil rights.

    Also, Scotland has no chance of success without good relations with rUK, they will have to do a lot of butt kissing.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    Not according to over two million Scots in the greatest democratic exercise our country ever saw.



    Perhaps, it's just that you clearly haven't considered what "the people" mean in this context. The United States fought secession on a belief that the will of the people was paramount, because in a democracy, the demos - the community of the political entity - decides.



    "Here's a bad thing - that's going to happen, so let's just not worry about subjecting ourselves to an even worse thing".

    Yes, Scotland can "survive". Ethiopia survives. Somaliland survives. It doesn't mean we won't suffer a huge decline in our living standards.
    Just to be sure, you are Scottish right? Do you also live in Scotland?
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    (Original post by BrianMcEgg)
    How could you possibly compare North Korea and Scotland? One has one of the world's worst human rights records I've ever seen and the latter has a good record of human rights.
    It's called a joke mate
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    (Original post by elitepower)
    I think you are the one spoutting nonsense pal.*
    *
    The UK has voted for Brexit (a total mistake). This has given many other people in other countries a similar idea. Why would the EU not make an example of the UK? The Leave campaign list has already been shot down. The EU's job is now to protect the EU, and make the best deal for the EU, not the UK.
    *
    Oh you are having a laugh. Scotland can survive independence. Sure it won't be pretty but Brexit has screwed it anyway. This isn't going to blow over or be forgotten. People in Scotland want to stay in the EU, they are not looking favourably at the people who are trying to drag them out. Scotland is LEAVING - get it through your head.**
    *
    EDIT - JP Morgan has predicted Scotland will become independent and introduce its own currency before Britain leaves the EU*
    As the other user said, that is not JP Morgan's actual view, also, the things stated are utter nonsense.
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    (Original post by elitepower)
    I think you are the one spoutting nonsense pal.*
    *
    The UK has voted for Brexit (a total mistake). This has given many other people in other countries a similar idea. Why would the EU not make an example of the UK? The Leave campaign list has already been shot down. The EU's job is now to protect the EU, and make the best deal for the EU, not the UK.
    *
    Oh you are having a laugh. Scotland can survive independence. Sure it won't be pretty but Brexit has screwed it anyway. This isn't going to blow over or be forgotten. People in Scotland want to stay in the EU, they are not looking favourably at the people who are trying to drag them out. Scotland is LEAVING - get it through your head.**
    *
    EDIT - JP Morgan has predicted Scotland will become independent and introduce its own currency before Britain leaves the EU*
    Oh dear oh dear, what do we have here, yet another salty remainer
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    (Original post by cbblitz)
    Why is it daft? Because you identify as British? I despise being identified as British. I have no cultural identity which relates to England or Wales. The history of my country has no positive history with the history of Wales. Scotland isn't represented by anything in England what so ever. Is it so wrong that I want the national identity of the country where I'm from to be separate from a country I hold no loyalty of passion for?

    Scotland would survive just fine. People are telling you Brexit will destroy the world just like they said it with Scottish independence. There is so much red tape that the only people taking hit are millionaires in the stocks.
    Some people's politics go beyond tribalism. All this rubbish about identity, flags and Glaswegian sectarian rivalries is all part of the same nonsense. It is extremely daft that this sort of silliness ends up getting politicised.

    I stand for a politics that isn't based on insularity and division. It has nothing whatsoever to do with identity, which is clearly a fluid, overlapping and complex thing for most people rather than the straightforward choice nationalists present.

    To suggest, writing in English, that you have no cultural identity that relates to England and Wales is quite frankly just funny.

    Your insecurities about your identity are not and should not be a political issue. I think you're entirely wrong and insular in this regard, but above all my clear point is that this is not politics, its tribalism.

    You have absolutely no basis to assert that Scotland would be "just fine" if it separated from the UK. Indeed, where you're going to plug that £15 billion deficit it would create, I'd love to know.

    Brexit has shown that these sort of choices have consequences. Dismissing them as some sort of abstract point about stocks and share prices just highlights the level of ignorance here: these shares are not just held by millionaires, they are people's pensions, they represent the investment in businesses that create jobs and improve living standards. Just because you don't engage with it doesn't mean the overall economy doesn't have a huge impact on your life.

    Rangers fans walked down the street, signing British anti-Scotland songs
    What are these songs? I've certainly never heard of them.
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    (Original post by elitepower)
    I hope you aren't referring to the 2014 refererndum because pretending that is relevant now is silly. The UK has changed, Scotland's opinion has changed.
    I don't think that's the case. Even with the kneejerk angry polls after last Thursday's vote, the Yes side still has only a margin-of-error lead. This is in a political environment where we're supposed to believe London independence is a serious contention too. In short, if Brexit was going to cause a surge in nationalism, now would be the time it happened - rather than a trickle of people who are pissed off and have no idea how this will be resolved.

    As for "the UK has changed" - the UK is always changing. That's really rather the point: we have a government that changes things, that makes new policy, that adapts to changing economic and political environments. I appreciate the SNP is probably the most small-c conservative party in the UK, but if you're expecting the UK to be the same in ten or twenty years time, then you're very wrong.

    The argument for staying is incredibly weaker.
    I think we can safely say the opposite: an independent Scotland in the EU with England and Wales outside the EU is the worst of all options. It opens up questions of a hard border, kills off any idea of "inheriting" opt-outs and puts paid to any idea that we could continue to use the same currency quite happily.

    So the UK leaving the EU is a massive "achievement" according to you and its so much better off but Scotland can't leave without being reduced to Ethiopia standards? But its Remain people making crazy statements
    I'm not sure who you're quoting here, but it certainly isn't me. I suspect it might well be no-one. I was a strong Remain voter and campaigned for that.

    Where you have clearly read what I wrote, you are either being conniving in your interpretation of it or cannot understand a fairly simple point. I said Ethiopia survives as a state - your assertion that Scotland would survive as a state is fairly meaningless if that is what we're measuring it against.

    They might carry on (although they are not going to do it quietly - rallies are occurring and well supported) but the battles over.
    I struggle to think of a single rally in my lifetime that has brought about any change in public policy. In most cases, normal people tend to look at the sorts of people who go to protests and think "what a bunch of oddballs".

    Are we genuinely supposed to believe that the people of Scotland actually give much of a toss about EU membership, versus something like the Norway solution? I've certainly never seen any sign that that is reflected in mainstream public opinion. Indeed, the derisory turnout for last week's referendum in Scotland perhaps tells us something about the disconnect between Scotland and the EU.

    (Original post by elitepower)
    The days of the UK are numbered, whatever those numbers are, this will be remembered when the chance arises and it will push people against England.
    On the first half of that statement, Scottish nationalists have been telling us that their movement's triumph is inevitable for a very long time. They told us they would inevitably win the last referendum. There's a point whereby assertions like this are not displays of confidence, but quite the opposite. In politics, of course, nothing is certain: if anything, I'd have through the last few years would have demonstrated that quite ably.

    I'm not sure I'd want to be on the side of any debate that will "push people against England". That's the sort of Anglophobic language that I hope even the SNP and its fellow travellers had moved away from.

    (Original post by The_Opinion)
    Just to be sure, you are Scottish right? Do you also live in Scotland?
    Although I think it's pretty irrelevant, the answer to the first question is yes, and the second is that in the past six months I have to move around for my job a bit - but prior to that, absolutely.
 
 
 
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