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Strongest argument yet from a remain voter Watch

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    (Original post by PilgrimOfTruth)
    Ok some serious education required here. The key issue regarding how democratic the EU is, is to understand just how tiny a part of the EU Britain is and how little impact it has within that "democracy". A democracy is all well and good but if you are one person amongst many then your vote has no sway at all.

    Here are the facts then.

    In order to win a EU vote you need a "qualifying majority". Sounds good, ok let's look at what that means.

    To achieve a Qualifying Majority you need to satisfy 2 things:

    - a majority of member states - 15 member states - vote in favour
    - a minimum of 260 votes out of the total 352 votes are cast in favour

    So first off, if the UK wanted to achieve something, some change in the EU, it would need the backing of 14 other member states which for the most part it will never get.

    Secondly note that there are a TOTAL of 352 votes in the EU. The UK has only 29 of those votes. Read that again. The UK has only 29 votes. So does France, Germany and Italy.

    You need 260 votes to achieve a majority so to effect any change at all the UK requires 231 votes from other member states, which of course, never happens.

    So whilst the whole thing appears to be a democratic process, it is a democracy in which the UK has bugger all standing and will NEVER have any significant impact.

    It is like buying 1 share in HSBC and hoping there by to have the power to vote off the CEO at the next AGM. Utterly futile.

    This is the reason why so many changes that the UK has tried to implement in the EU have been constantly rejected. It can not and never will achieve a "Qualifying Majority".

    Being out of the EU means we can have the freedom to be the country that we want and live under the laws we want. Being out of the EU means that YOU the people still get to vote and have a say in national affairs. Inside the EU you would have had no vote whatsoever. Inside the EU, Westminster would disband, UK Parliament would disband, there would be no Liberal Party, No Labour Party, No Conservative Party, no local parties whatsoever. Your voice would be lost . . . forever.

    By Leaving we have saved democracy. We have ensured that a meaningful democracy remains for old and young alike. Inside the EU our mouths would have been taped shut.
    This is irrelevant anyway since we've voted to leave but I'd question this "serious education".

    There wasn't two criteria to fulfil for qmv, one was replacing the other.

    Westminster, national and local parties being abolished is speculation.

    Never having support to make changes in the future is speculation.

    We did have a say in national affairs.

    Any perceived lack of standing is subjective. IMO this was down to the UK govt only putting up with the EU rather than participating constructively.

    n.b Writing YOUR post like a Daily Mail headline prevents me from taking it SERIOUSLY.
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    Let's face it the majority of brexiters voted leave because of immigration and fell for the "take back control" rhetoric without having a clue of the complex nature of the EU.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    Westminster, national and local parties being abolished is speculation.
    Lisbon Treaty - Page 16 Article 8A-4.
    “Political parties at European level contribute to forming European political awareness and to expressing the will of citizens of the Union.”

    From www.eutruth.org.uk
    "At the EU’s Party Financing Conference in Madrid in June 1999, parties at the European level were defined as parties with voters in more than 10 countries.
    The Labour, Conservative and Lib Dem Parties have voters in only one country, Britain.

    Under this definition of "parties" our British parties do not contribute and do not express the will of the EU’s citizens. They are thus ultimately meaningless, not needed and likely to be abolished.

    Also read this:

    https://pjcjournal.wordpress.com/201...effective-end/

    "On the 1st November 2014 the right of Parliament to legislate over us in 43 areas, the important ones, will be removed and be made subject to approval. They call it QMV, Qualified Majority Voting."

    (Original post by JamesN88)
    Never having support to make changes in the future is speculation.

    From: http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/uk-m...an-parliament/

    "Overall, European Parliament voting records suggest that the UK is in a weak position in this branch of the EU’s legislative system. Most British MEPs do not sit in the groups that dominate the European Parliament agenda. And even when they do sit in these groups – such as the Conservatives in EPP before 2009, and Labour in S&D – British MEPs are often opposed to the majority positions of these groups. As a result, British MEPs often find themselves on the losing side in key votes.

    The above is based on factual analysis of actual votes that have happened since 2004.
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    (Original post by datboii)
    Let's face it the majority of brexiters voted leave because of immigration and fell for the "take back control" rhetoric without having a clue of the complex nature of the EU.
    Utter tosh. Immigration never came into it for millions including myself. Being awake to the rising menace of an all powerful totalitarian EU superstate whose EU Laws took primacy over UK laws, which would ultimately end the concept of an individual country having a National interest and being fed up of a minority super wealthy elite running the show and corrupting all levels of authorities was what caused me to vote Leave and there are many others in a similar mind set.
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    That dab at the end was CLEAN tho
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    (Original post by PilgrimOfTruth)
    Utter tosh. Immigration never came into it for millions including myself. Being awake to the rising menace of an all powerful totalitarian EU superstate whose EU Laws took primacy over UK laws, which would ultimately end the concept of an individual country having a National interest and being fed up of a minority super wealthy elite running the show and corrupting all levels of authorities was what caused me to vote Leave and there are many others in a similar mind set.
    blah blah blah get your head out of the clouds. The majority of brexiters just heard the "take back control" rhetoric and voted for it. They would have thought it was about borders.
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    What I find interesting is that people don't seem to want to hold remainers to the same intellectual standards as leavers. Loads of leavers are criticised as ignorant, but how many I wonder who didn't know much about it just voted remain because it seemed the "safe" option? There seems to be this notion that because remaining maintains the status quo, to be relatively ignorant on it and still vote to remain is alright. I know most people on here will have decent reasons because in general people on this site are smarter than the average bear and research things, but I'm talking the whole voting population here.
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    Laughable and depressing at the same time
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    (Original post by datboii)
    blah blah blah get your head out of the clouds. The majority of brexiters just heard the "take back control" rhetoric and voted for it. They would have thought it was about borders.
    I'm sorry the truth doesn't meet with your convenient theory that Leavers are just duped and don't understand what is going on.

    We are awake, we know the criminals are running the show, the banksters, fraudsters and the EU takes away our democracy. The tide is turning.
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    (Original post by PilgrimOfTruth)
    I'm sorry the truth doesn't meet with your convenient theory that Leavers are just duped and don't understand what is going on.

    We are awake, we know the criminals are running the show, the banksters, fraudsters and the EU takes away our democracy. The tide is turning.
    If you think this is not the truth then you are an idiot. Not to sound bigoted but if you are aware of the recent events in light of the brexit vote and cant draw the link as to why many voted leave then you are deranged.

    Why do you think so many of the working class and the poor, who are better off voting remain, ended up voting leave? The whole "independence day" and "take back control" rhetorics are a play on the deep xenophobia that exists.
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    (Original post by datboii)
    Why do you think so many of the working class and the poor, who are better off voting remain, ended up voting leave?
    This is laughable !

    1. the working class/poor would not have been better off voting Remain

    2. The voted Leave because they ARE poor and kept that way by a minority super wealthy elite who have corrupted all levels of governments and authorities.

    Enough was enough.
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    (Original post by PilgrimOfTruth)
    This is laughable !

    1. the working class/poor would not have been better off voting Remain

    2. The voted Leave because they ARE poor and kept that way by a minority super wealthy elite who have corrupted all levels of governments and authorities.

    Enough was enough.
    Im done here. You're arguments are generic and you sound like one of those fanatics who think the EU is the cause of all our problems.

    And no. The working class are better off voting remain.
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    (Original post by datboii)
    Im done here. You're arguments are generic and you sound like one of those fanatics who think the EU is the cause of all our problems.

    And no. The working class are better off voting remain.
    The EU is just another element of the bigger problem of the criminal elite controlling everything. We should NEVER have gone into the EU without a referendum in the first place, a vital democratic element that Gordon Brown denied politicians and the populous alike. That act was imo criminal. Britain voted to join the EC years ago, but at the point it changed to a political state and sought to supersede our UK Laws with EU Laws, we should have had full disclosure and a referendum. Instead politicians and the monarchy pushed the Lisbon Treaty through the back door without public consultation or consent.
    We are now undoing that rather criminal action.
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    (Original post by datboii)
    If you think this is not the truth then you are an idiot. Not to sound bigoted but if you are aware of the recent events in light of the brexit vote and cant draw the link as to why many voted leave then you are deranged.

    Why do you think so many of the working class and the poor, who are better off voting remain, ended up voting leave? The whole "independence day" and "take back control" rhetorics are a play on the deep xenophobia that exists.
    Just give it up mate, you're dealing with someone who cites this website as a credible source.

    http://www.eutruth.org.uk/

    I love bit about the EU plot to take control of the UK's and France's nuclear arsenal. :lol:

    http://www.eutruth.org.uk/traitors.html
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    (Original post by PilgrimOfTruth)
    The EU is just another element of the bigger problem of the criminal elite controlling everything. We should NEVER have gone into the EU without a referendum in the first place, a vital democratic element that Gordon Brown denied politicians and the populous alike. That act was imo criminal. Britain voted to join the EC years ago, but at the point it changed to a political state and sought to supersede our UK Laws with EU Laws, we should have had full disclosure and a referendum. Instead politicians and the monarchy pushed the Lisbon Treaty through the back door without public consultation or consent.
    We are now undoing that rather criminal action.
    yawn

    (Original post by JamesN88)
    Just give it up mate, you're dealing with someone who cites this website as a credible source.

    http://www.eutruth.org.uk/

    I love bit about the EU plot to take control of the UK's and France's nuclear arsenal. :lol:

    http://www.eutruth.org.uk/traitors.html
    I hate these bloody fanatics they just want to believe theres a conspiracy within the EU to satisfy their mundane and miserable lives. Your avg brexit voter.
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    (Original post by welshiee)
    and she also gives her reason for staying in the EU as free movement, something that is entirely possible without being in the EU as you can still be a part of EFTA with bilateral trade agreements.
    If we had free movement and were in EFTA we would effectively be EEA alongside Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein which means quite extensive access to the Single Market.

    The issue I have with that option is it feels a bit like thinking we've made a mistake and trying to do damage limitation. We have given up our place on the inside of the process deciding single market rules, given up our vetoes and become rule takers on single market rules. The only real sovereignty we gain is agriculture and fisheries plus justice and home affairs where we already had opt outs. And I suppose we can apply different rules to our home market but other than labour market policy it is hard to see why we would do too many changes as we start making our firms have to learn two different systems if they want to export to the EU.

    I expect the majority of the UK business community will favour this kind of arrangement as they could live with it without relocating and I expect they will be placing a lot of pressure on policy makers to push for this.

    But for many leave voters this would feel like a sell out. The campaign was fought on immigration and then we row back from it in the negotiations. It would be like Clegg and tuition fees.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    I love bit about the EU plot to take control of the UK's and France's nuclear arsenal.
    Lisbon Treaty:

    Page 39 10A-c-3

    "Member States shall make civilian and military capabilities available to the Union for the implementation of the common security and defence policy,”

    “Member States shall undertake progressively to improve their military capabilities.”



    Bottom line is the armies of the member states basically become one huge EU army there to support the aims and agendas of the EU.
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    If we had free movement and were in EFTA we would effectively be EEA alongside Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein which means quite extensive access to the Single Market.
    Wrong.

    EFTA + a set of bilateral trade agreements is not the same deal as Norway. This is the Switzerland deal and something like this is what we need.

    EFTA + EEA is the same deal as Norway and that would be a disaster.
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    (Original post by welshiee)
    Wrong.

    EFTA + a set of bilateral trade agreements is not the same deal as Norway. This is the Switzerland deal and something like this is what we need.

    EFTA + EEA is the same deal as Norway and that would be a disaster.
    When you say bilateral trade agreements do you mean bilateral agreements on single market access.

    If we were in EFTA we automatically have a free trade agreement with the EU and we have the right to have bilateral agreements with other countries.

    The Switzerland deal is unlikely to be on offer as relations between the EU and Switzerland have gone toxic, the Swiss have had a referendum on introducing quotas on migration and the EU is going to void all their bilateral treaties if they do.
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    When you say bilateral trade agreements do you mean bilateral agreements on single market access.

    If we were in EFTA we automatically have a free trade agreement with the EU and we have the right to have bilateral agreements with other countries.

    The Switzerland deal is unlikely to be on offer as relations between the EU and Switzerland have gone toxic, the Swiss have had a referendum on introducing quotas on migration and the EU is going to void all their bilateral treaties if they do.
    Yes, and we should back up the Swiss on this and unite with them moving forward.

    If we enter the EEA I will just leave the country and move to Australia as that will solve absolutely nothing.
 
 
 
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