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Post-referendum situation is looking increasingly undemocratic and unconstitutional Watch

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    (Original post by jneill)
    One would be, if it turns out correct that trade negotiations can't start until after we leave in 2 years. Leaving us in limbo for much longer than expected.
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    Well not really. Article 50 was there for all to see. The US president suggested we would be at the back of the queue. The President of the European Council, WTO, Euro Bank, our own Bank, our own government and more besides all warned that we would not get preferential treatment and that deals would not be quick or easy to do. All of this was dismissed as scaremongering by the leave campaign.

    We are getting what we asked for. We can only role with the punch and hope for the best. To deny democracy would put our country in serious jeopardy and undermine the very ideology that underpins the way we do things.
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    (Original post by jneill)
    One would be, if it turns out correct that trade negotiations can't start until after we leave in 2 years. Leaving us in limbo for much longer than expected.



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    Who with any common sense is actually suggesting that? There is absolutely no reason why deals cannot be negotiated before leaving as long as they do not come into effect until after we leave in much the same way that I could, say, make a deal to borrow some cash off a mate before they have the cash to lend.

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    (Original post by physicsphysics91)
    As were they were by remain. Notably by Ruth Davidson stating that Andrea Leadsom's values of 60% were lies, they were later checked to be 59%.
    Be fair. Not biased.

    Both sides lied.

    Oops reread what you said, ignore me. I'm ill.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Who with any common sense is actually suggesting that? There is absolutely no reason why deals cannot be negotiated before leaving as long as they do not come into effect until after we leave in much the same way that I could, say, make a deal to borrow some cash off a mate before they have the cash to lend.

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    You know this already - but http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36678222
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    Meh. A referendum was proposed to the people. The people voted in favour of a certain decision. The cabinet, who already have the majority support of parliament, and therefore by our arcane and disproportional voting system, the people, will carry out that decision.

    The cabinet and Prime Ministerial position have both increasingly gained more powers and responsibility under our constantly evolving constitution. It is not necessarily something I agree with, but it is the reality of the situation. If necessary I believe parliament should rubber stamp us evoking Article 50, but in all likelihood that will just lead to those opposed to block the decision of the referendum. Which would in turn lead to an even bigger backlash than the current referendum result has done. The last thing this country needs is further turmoil and instability, even under the guise of being for economic stability.

    It is time for Remain to come up with an alternative, and set out their arguments for what they want in our negotiations with the EU, rather than cling to the notion that the referendum can be annulled. If the house is burning, ring the fire brigade, don't magically wish it didn't catch fire. In all likelihood it seems that our re-negotiation will favour the demands of Remain. Also in the case that we don't leave if you think Boris had it bad, wait until you see what will happen to any Tory Prime Minister who refuses to evoke Article 50. The electorate 'voted' Conservative for the next five years, so we are at the mercy of their MPs and party members unfortunately. Be thankful a Remain candidate is the front runner, and the axis of power in parliament hasn't shifted significantly to the Brexiteers.
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    She isn't involved in it though, negotiations are done via the council rather than commission and those on the council don't want to wait until after exit.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    She isn't involved in it though, negotiations are done via the council rather than commission and those on the council don't want to wait until after exit.

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    The Commissioners certainly haven't been helping the cause of making the EU seem more democratic during the days since the referendum - sounding off without authority being their hallmark.

    In any event, the German foreign ministry usually override these little rants by Commissioners within hours. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Swanbow)
    Meh. A referendum was proposed to the people. The people voted in favour of a certain decision. The cabinet, who already have the majority support of parliament, and therefore by our arcane and disproportional voting system, the people, will carry out that decision.

    The cabinet and Prime Ministerial position have both increasingly gained more powers and responsibility under our constantly evolving constitution. It is not necessarily something I agree with, but it is the reality of the situation. If necessary I believe parliament should rubber stamp us evoking Article 50, but in all likelihood that will just lead to those opposed to block the decision of the referendum. Which would in turn lead to an even bigger backlash than the current referendum result has done. The last thing this country needs is further turmoil and instability, even under the guise of being for economic stability.

    It is time for Remain to come up with an alternative, and set out their arguments for what they want in our negotiations with the EU, rather than cling to the notion that the referendum can be annulled. If the house is burning, ring the fire brigade, don't magically wish it didn't catch fire. In all likelihood it seems that our re-negotiation will favour the demands of Remain. Also in the case that we don't leave if you think Boris had it bad, wait until you see what will happen to any Tory Prime Minister who refuses to evoke Article 50. The electorate 'voted' Conservative for the next five years, so we are at the mercy of their MPs and party members unfortunately. Be thankful a Remain candidate is the front runner, and the axis of power in parliament hasn't shifted significantly to the Brexiteers.
    If Labour gets a half-way decent leader in place, the Tories are toast at the next election anyway.

    I don't think Article 50 will be invoked until there is a clear picture of what the UK is going to 'get'. I don't believe that Theresa May will rush to invoke it, despite any backbiting or aggression that comes her way from UKIP or the headbangers on her backbench. There will be a timetable set, six months for negotiations or something like that.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    If Labour gets a half-way decent leader in place, the Tories are toast at the next election anyway.
    One word: Scotland


    I don't think Article 50 will be invoked until there is a clear picture of what the UK is going to 'get'. I don't believe that Theresa May will rush to invoke it, despite any backbiting or aggression that comes her way from UKIP or the headbangers on her backbench. There will be a timetable set, six months for negotiations or something like that.
    That relies on the EU having lied about saying there will not even be informal talks beforehand, although i think that was the commission rather than any of the council (might have been Merkel though)

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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)

    If she doesn't say this, effectively, we will all know that our constitution as it stands has come to an end and British democracy is dead. The natural recourse of the people in that situation is insurrection and, if necessary, civil war.
    I know you're disappointed you lost but the young, middle-classes should stick to what it's good at - that is - impotently raging on internet websites like this one.



    Everyone knows the chattering classes can't fight. The working class folk overwhelming voted to Leave. Your insurrection is going to end up with you needing a resurrection.

    There's a reason the 'working classes' don't have safe spaces.



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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    One word: Scotland



    That relies on the EU having lied about saying there will not even be informal talks beforehand, although i think that was the commission rather than any of the council (might have been Merkel though)

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    It wasn't Merkel, she's been conciliatory. Juncker can rant all he likes, in the end it's Germany that decides with Hollande and he's also going to want it to be smooth.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    If Labour gets a half-way decent leader in place, the Tories are toast at the next election anyway.

    Hmmm, Scottish people no longer feel represented by Labour. May I remind you that Labour only has 1 Scottish MP where it used to have 50 or more?


    In addition, many of the working communities that Labour used to represent feel like Labour is out of touch on issues like immigration and working class values. They see Labour as the party for Londoners now. Which is why so many rebelled in the EU referendum.

    Finally, the constituency boundaries are changing before the next GE (unless a snap one gets called in Sept). These boundaries weren't reflecting the changing population of modern Britain and unfairly favoured Labour. This will probably result in about a 50 seat swing for the Conservatives too.



    I'm sorry, even without the bumbling Corbyn, Labour are in for a bloodbath at 2020 unless it makes some serious progress on these issues.

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    (Original post by Supersaps)
    Hmmm, Scottish people no longer feel represented by Labour. May I remind you that Labour only has 1 Scottish MP where it used to have 50 or more?


    In addition, many of the working communities that Labour used to represent feel like Labour is out of touch on issues like immigration and working class values. They see Labour as the party for Londoners now. Which is why so many rebelled in the EU referendum.

    Finally, the constituency boundaries are changing before the next GE (unless a snap one gets called in Sept). These boundaries weren't reflecting the changing population of modern Britain and unfairly favoured Labour. This will probably result in about a 50 seat swing for the Conservatives too.



    I'm sorry, even without the bumbling Corbyn, Labour are in for a bloodbath at 2020 unless it makes some serious progress on these issues.

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    Tbf, I didn't say Labour would form a majority - the most likely outcome is they would have to bite the bullet and go into coalition with the SNP.

    However, I do think that with good leadership, other parties could make inroads back into Scotland - people will gradually get sick of the SNP, they don't have much to offer beyond constant reflex politics and the obsession with something 60% of Scots don't really want.

    However, the way things are currently, it seems that perhaps what's needed is a new Progressive Party that encompasses all of these movements and acts as a coalition, something like a Green/SNP/Plaid/Labour alliance.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Tbf, I didn't say Labour would form a majority - the most likely outcome is they would have to bite the bullet and go into coalition with the SNP.

    However, I do think that with good leadership, other parties could make inroads back into Scotland - people will gradually get sick of the SNP, they don't have much to offer beyond constant reflex politics and the obsession with something 60% of Scots don't really want.

    However, the way things are currently, it seems that perhaps what's needed is a new Progressive Party that encompasses all of these movements and acts as a coalition, something like a Green/SNP/Plaid/Labour alliance.
    Fair enough.

    The vote left wing vote being split by the SNP and formerly, the Lib Dems both hurt labour. Particularly in marginal seats. A unified vote swapping would do marvels.

    The problem (depending on your perspective) with an SNP coalition is we know exactly what their condition for forming a coalition is going to be, don't we?

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    (Original post by Supersaps)
    Fair enough.

    The vote left wing vote being split by the SNP and formerly, the Lib Dems both hurt labour. Particularly in marginal seats. A unified vote swapping would do marvels.

    The problem (depending on your perspective) with an SNP coalition is we know exactly what their condition for forming a coalition is going to be, don't we?

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    TBH, listening to some of the SNP people the last few days, it's probably best to just to ignore them, they will go away after a bit. :teehee:
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    (Original post by Mimir)
    The "discuss" is implied, right?

    Not something Parliament needs to do for two reasons:

    Prerogative power of the Crown can be used by the PM.

    No government in the UK has ever gone against a referendum.
    Leaving the EU involves overruling an act of parliament, something the government cannot do. Article 50 has to be invoked inline with the constitutional requirements of the UK, so simply invoking it may not be legally valid.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Leaving the EU involves overruling an act of parliament, something the government cannot do. Article 50 has to be invoked inline with the constitutional requirements of the UK, so simply invoking it may not be legally valid.
    There's going to be a major legal challenge on that - doubtless it will go all the way to the Supreme Court.

    One thing people are also currently overlooking is that the European Court might rule the process invalid and it also has to pass through the EU Parliament, although presumably they won't obstruct.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    If the government are ignoring law, Parliament and constitution, then what recourse is left other than extra-parliamentary action?
    I have to say that when I read comments like the above quoted (and you are hardly alone in coming out with stuff like this) it seems like we are witnessing the complete moral collapse of the left.

    You lost. More people voted to leave the EU than have EVER voted for anything in the whole of British history.

    And there is nothing the virtue signalling, leftie luvvie, pro EU, North London elite can do about it. The poor, the oppressed, the left behind, have risen up against you.

    What exactly will this "extra parliamentary action" consist of?

    "What do we want? Cheap quinoa! When do we want it? Now!"

    It is laughable.
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    In a democracy, we listen to the people. We would call it undemocratic to ignore the results of a general election and likewise, I believe it would be undemocratic to ignore the results of this referendum.
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    (Original post by Platopus)
    In a democracy, we listen to the people. We would call it undemocratic to ignore the results of a general election and likewise, I believe it would be undemocratic to ignore the results of this referendum.
    Exactly.

    The left thinks it knows best and the voters are wrong you see.

    That is what it amounts to at bottom when you strip out the legal and constitutional antics referred to in this thread..

    And that is why the Labour Party speaks for no-one nowadays. They thought they knew best and their own voters were wrong.

    It will be interesting to see how this new "Progressive" party of virtue signalling London luvvies everyone is talking about does against UKIP under a new leader in the North and West Midlands and working class Wales.

    Progressive but not speaking for the poor....
 
 
 
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