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Palestinian woman attempts to stab Israeli soldiers, shot Watch

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    (Original post by john2054)
    Before the partition, the arabs jews and christians lived in this area together in peace. Side by side.
    That's actually not true. Just like for Jews living in Europe, there were periods of tolerance and periods of persecution. First, Jews were always second-class citizens; they were dhimmi and they suffered all manner of indignities and violence against them. They were even forced to wear yellow badges by some Muslim rulers.

    Second, if there was some kind of crisis or loss of faith in the population, the Jews were often the first to be targeted. Here's a list of anti-Jewish pogroms in the Muslim world here; as you can see, they span many time periods and places (1033 in Fez, 1066 in Grenada, 1517 in Hebron, 1834 in Safed, 1910 in Shiraz, 1945 in Egypt... over and over again in Muslim lands, with many such persecutions considered to be so usual as not be worth recording)
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    (Original post by Thutmose-III)
    That's actually not true. Just like for Jews living in Europe, there were periods of tolerance and periods of persecution. First, Jews were always second-class citizens; they were dhimmi and they suffered all manner of indignities and violence against them. They were even forced to wear yellow badges by some Muslim rulers.

    Second, if there was some kind of crisis or loss of faith in the population, the Jews were often the first to be targeted. Here's a list of anti-Jewish pogroms in the Muslim world here; as you can see, they span many time periods and places (1033 in Fez, 1066 in Grenada, 1517 in Hebron, 1834 in Safed, 1910 in Shiraz, 1945 in Egypt... over and over again in Muslim lands, with many such persecutions considered to be so usual as not be worth recording)
    My dad's friend used to live over there, he was actually engaged to a Palestian woman before the partition, so that is how i know you are wrong.
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    (Original post by john2054)
    Before the partition, the arabs jews and christians lived in this area together in peace. Side by side.
    Not really, there were multiple riots during 30's by Muslims because they hated Jews moving in.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Not really, there were multiple riots during 30's by Muslims because they hated Jews moving in.
    were you alive then? please stop your nonsense thanks
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    An invasion involves aggressively entering another state's sovereign territory - it's a meaningless concept if a state has no defined sovereign territory.
    You just confirmed that Israel is not an invader: the West Bank and Gaza were not legal parts of any country in 1967.
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    (Original post by admonit)
    You just confirmed that Israel is not an invader: the West Bank and Gaza were not legal parts of any country in 1967.
    Sinai and Golan indisputably were, though, and Israel occupied both of those in the same war, and continues to occupy the latter to this day.

    Also, while unrecognised, the West Bank, including East Jerusalem was treated by Amman as a sovereign part of Jordan until 1967, and as such had defined borders and territory, and so at least met the criteria that made a concept of invasion possible.
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    So it seems Thutmose-III/BeastOfSyracuse/SignFromDog/ExcitedPup/etc (and likely several others that either I didn't notice or can't remember) is banned again. No surprises there.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Also, while unrecognised, the West Bank, including East Jerusalem was treated by Amman as a sovereign part of Jordan until 1967, and as such had defined borders and territory, and so at least met the criteria that made a concept of invasion possible.
    The proclaimed Jewish state also considered its territory as sovereign, according to UN plan. And?
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    (Original post by admonit)
    The proclaimed Jewish state also considered its territory as sovereign, according to UN plan.
    As I said above, it proclaimed no specific territorial borders. Reference to the UNSCOP-proposed borders was deliberately omitted from the Declaration of Independence.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    As I said above, it proclaimed no specific territorial borders. Reference to the UNSCOP-proposed borders was deliberately omitted from the Declaration of Independence.
    As I said above they proclaimed the Jewish country according to the UN plan. Why should they repeat the content of the plan in the Declaration of Independence?
    Could you prove that borders were deliberately omitted from the Declaration of Independence?
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    (Original post by admonit)
    As I said above they proclaimed the Jewish country according to the UN plan. Why should they repeat the content of the plan in the Declaration of Independence?
    Because you're claiming that was the supposed legal basis for the Declaration.

    Could you prove that borders were deliberately omitted from the Declaration of Independence?
    http://jtr.shanti.virginia.edu/the-i...y-a-committee/

    "First, some background. The declaration, read by David Ben-Gurion on May 14, 1948, was prepared by a range of hands, starting with a first draft prepared by Zvi Berenson, which was developed further by a committee that included Moshe Shertok (Sharett) , David Remez, Pinhas Rosenblueth (Rosen), Moshe Shapira, and Aharon Zisling. The initial draft stated that the boundaries of the state would be those established by the UN partition resolution of November 29, 1947. The inclusion of this was rejected by the larger committee charged with approving the draft by a vote of 5-4. (It was explicitly noted that the US Declaration of Independence did not designate its borders.) The final wording was entrusted to another committee, which included Ben-Gurion, Rabbi Fishman (Maimon), Zisling and Shertok. This version was accepted by the National Council, established by the Zionist General Council, after considerable debate."
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    (Original post by oShahpo)
    Do you not feel for the lady?
    Why would you? At best, charging armed soldiers manning a guard post/checking point and ignoring orders to stop is foolhardy. There was only ever going to be one outcome and I would hazard a guess SHE knew that when she went to her cutlery drawer and started going eenie meanie miny mo with the knives, forks and spoons sections
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Because you're claiming that was the supposed legal basis for the Declaration.
    Not only I, but, what is more important, the Declaration itself:
    "ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY"
    http://jtr.shanti.virginia.edu/the-i...y-a-committee/

    "First, some background. The declaration, read by David Ben-Gurion on May 14, 1948, was prepared by a range of hands, starting with a first draft prepared by Zvi Berenson, which was developed further by a committee that included Moshe Shertok (Sharett) , David Remez, Pinhas Rosenblueth (Rosen), Moshe Shapira, and Aharon Zisling. The initial draft stated that the boundaries of the state would be those established by the UN partition resolution of November 29, 1947. The inclusion of this was rejected by the larger committee charged with approving the draft by a vote of 5-4. (It was explicitly noted that the US Declaration of Independence did not designate its borders.) The final wording was entrusted to another committee, which included Ben-Gurion, Rabbi Fishman (Maimon), Zisling and Shertok. This version was accepted by the National Council, established by the Zionist General Council, after considerable debate."
    There is no confirmation that any draft of the Declaration defined the boundaries of Israel. So there was nothing to reject.
    And yes, the US Declaration of Independence also did not designate its borders. May be also "deliberately"? :cool:
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    (Original post by admonit)
    There is no confirmation that any draft of the Declaration defined the boundaries of Israel. So there was nothing to reject.
    I just provided you with a source affirming quite the contrary.

    And yes, the US Declaration of Independence also did not designate its borders. May be also "deliberately"? :cool:
    Well, I'd say there are two reasons why the US Declaration doesn't mention borders:
    i) It was a far earlier time period; many conventions and processes of international law that had been established by 1948 had not yet been established in 1776. In particular, Israel declared independence after the 1933 Montevideo Convention, which required states to have defined territories.
    ii) I also suspect part of the reason the US Declaration doesn't define borders was due to its frontierist, "Manifest Destiny" national idea in which it saw itself as perpetually expanding Westwards,thus refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of the Native American presence there. Which hopefully would not be something Israel's supporters want to emulate.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    I just provided you with a source affirming quite the contrary.
    Sorry, but the "source", an article of an American professor without any references, is not a historical document.
    For example, according to Israeli "Haaretz" Zvi Berenson was not the author of the first draft.
    "about a week before that ceremony, then-Justice Minister Pinchas Rosen handed the draft of the Declaration, which had been prepared in his ministry, to jurist Zvi Berenson."
    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.631452

    But we are discussing the content of the drafts? Here you can read all of them:
    http://www.religion-science-peace.or...by-zeev-sharef
    Well, I'd say there are two reasons why the US Declaration doesn't mention borders:
    i) It was a far earlier time period; many conventions and processes of international law that had been established by 1948 had not yet been established in 1776. In particular, Israel declared independence after the 1933 Montevideo Convention, which required states to have defined territories.
    ii) I also suspect part of the reason the US Declaration doesn't define borders was due to its frontierist, "Manifest Destiny" national idea in which it saw itself as perpetually expanding Westwards,thus refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of the Native American presence there. Which hopefully would not be something Israel's supporters want to emulate.
    First, the 1933 Montevideo Convention does not assert that the boundaries should be defined in Declaration of Independence.
    Second, according to you, Israel was admitted to the UN unlawfully. Ops, may be this is exactly your intention.. :cool:
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    (Original post by admonit)
    Sorry, but the "source", an article of an American professor without any references, is not a historical document.
    It is a credible secondary source. While you have cited sources now, in your previous post you neither cited counter-sources nor made specific arguments as to why it may not be accurate/trustworthy. You simply denied it.

    For example, according to Israeli "Haaretz" Zvi Berenson was not the author of the first draft.
    "about a week before that ceremony, then-Justice Minister Pinchas Rosen handed the draft of the Declaration, which had been prepared in his ministry, to jurist Zvi Berenson."
    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.631452

    But we are discussing the content of the drafts? Here you can read all of them:
    http://www.religion-science-peace.or...by-zeev-sharef
    No, there you can read what Zeev Sharef reports as the versions of the drafts. As the author of the article notes, Sharef does not make his sources clear. The article by Shelley Kleiman, the account provided on the website of Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, has severl inconsistencies with Sharef's account. Kleiman asserts that Berenson did indeed write the first draft. While Kleiman is unclear whether the drafts contained references to borders, it seems to be implied by the section that Ben-Gurion took the Declaration home and removed references to the Partition Plan. Shimon Peres' and David Landau's biography of Ben-Gurion also asserts that a prior draft contained reference to borders "as laid down in the United Nations resolution."

    With all of that said, this is a largely tangental point. The sources do not disagree but are clear that there was a debate on borders being mentioned in the Declaration, that Ben-Gurion spoke against it, and that the inclusion of borders was rejected by a 5-4 vote. Ergo, reference to borders was deliberately missing from the Declaration.

    First, the 1933 Montevideo Convention does not assert that the boundaries should be defined in Declaration of Independence.
    No, but they do have to at some point to fulfil criteria for statehood, and Israel never did at any other point either.

    Second, according to you, Israel was admitted to the UN unlawfully. Ops, may be this is exactly your intention.. :cool:
    The UN is entitled to recognise whoever it likes. Moreover, since the UN recognised Israel after the end of the 1948 War and the Armistice Agreements, it essentially recognised Israel's de facto borders as its international de jure ones. It has consistently held to that position ever since.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    It is a credible secondary source.
    "Proposed draft of the Declaration of Independence, 9 May 1948, edited by Zvi Berenson of the People's Administration's Legal Division, which served as a basis for the final version Israel State Archives"
    http://www.imj.org.il/exhibitions/20...asp?itemNum=11
    The site of the Israel museum, Jerusalem
    Israel state archives

    The draft fully identical to the first draft from the book "Three Days" by Zeev Sharef. No word about boundaries.
    With all of that said, this is a largely tangental point. The sources do not disagree but are clear that there was a debate on borders being mentioned in the Declaration, that Ben-Gurion spoke against it, and that the inclusion of borders was rejected by a 5-4 vote. Ergo, reference to borders was deliberately missing from the Declaration..
    The only common argument of Ben-Gurion in various sources is that the American Declaration of Independence made no reference to boundaries. Of course you are entitled to consider it as deliberate.
    How many Declarations of Independence with defined boundaries you know?
    No, but they do have to at some point to fulfil criteria for statehood, and Israel never did at any other point either.
    In a constant state of war with all its neighbours, which even didn't recognize it as a state? Are you serious?
    The UN is entitled to recognise whoever it likes. Moreover, since the UN recognised Israel after the end of the 1948 War and the Armistice Agreements, it essentially recognised Israel's de facto borders as its international de jure ones. It has consistently held to that position ever since.
    Arab countries clearly underlined in the Armistice Agreements that the Armistice Demarcation Line in no way can be considered as a border.
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    Well maybe because she was being forced to leave her home!
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    (Original post by physicsphysics91)
    Good to hear. Palestinians seem extremely violent and should be felt with accordingly. Long live Israel
    This is a divisive topic. Israel isn't going anywhere any time soon. Everybody knows that. But you're not exactly helping here by showing unanimous support for them, I bet you are in favour of wiping Palestine off the map. The most likely and logical solution is the one of 2 states.
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    (Original post by *Alisha*)
    Well maybe because she was being forced to leave her home!
    perhaps she was looking for Pokemon. *
 
 
 
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