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CB395 – Prohibition of Publicly Funded Faith Schools Bill 2011 Watch

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    (Original post by Aph)
    Might want to read this: http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/ethics.html not saying it's perfect but it's interesting.

    Also the idea that someone is 'too immature to reject religion' is to me a crazy one.
    It's a bit over the top, like my source. You can have morals without religion but it's an easy way to guide and teach children.
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    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    It's a bit over the top, like my source. You can have morals without religion but it's an easy way to guide and teach children.
    See but what you are then saying is that it is better to teach children that an all powerful man in the sky who will punish them eternally if they misbehave then to explain why society has the rules it has... I just don't accept that veiw point.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    See but what you are then saying is that it is better to teach children that an all powerful man in the sky who will punish them eternally if they misbehave then to explain why society has the rules it has... I just don't accept that veiw point.
    1. I'm not saying it's better to teach them morals through religion, I'm saying it's a good way.

    2. That's not how religion works. You tell them that in order to live a good and happy life, and to a lesser extent reach heaven (you'll only not get there by like killing twenty people and not feeling sorry about it) you must not steal, lie, cheat etc. as God sees everything and judges you just as we do - or something to that effect.

    3. If you try to explain it like you're suggesting they'll just get confused. Either that or they'll just keep asking why until you don't know how to respond. Trust me I've tried.
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    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    1. I'm not saying it's better to teach them morals through religion, I'm saying it's a good way.

    2. That's not how religion works. You tell them that in order to live a good and happy life, and to a lesser extent reach heaven (you'll only not get there by like killing twenty people and not feeling sorry about it) you must not steal, lie, cheat etc. as God sees everything and judges you just as we do - or something to that effect.

    3. If you try to explain it like you're suggesting they'll just get confused. Either that or they'll just keep asking why until you don't know how to respond. Trust me I've tried.
    1. For the teaching of morals to be an argument to keep religious schools they have to do it better than secular schools.

    2.yeah so big man in the sky judging you...

    3. Then you aren't a good teacher because it's simple enough to do.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    1. For the teaching of morals to be an argument to keep religious schools they have to do it better than secular schools.

    2.yeah so big man in the sky judging you...

    3. Then you aren't a good teacher because it's simple enough to do.
    Religious schools should be kept because there's freedom of religion, people should be allowed to send their children/children should be allowed to go to a school which teaches them about their faith.

    Still not how it works.

    That's just rude. The simple fact is that children aren't going to be interested in listening to you ramble on about how society wants you to behave. And I still maintain it is a good way of teaching morals:

    Students with high levels of religious commitment were noted to do better than students with low levels of religious commitment, and they also have more resistance to cheat on a paper-and-pencil test than children from secular schools.
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    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    Religious schools should be kept because there's freedom of religion, people should be allowed to send their children/children should be allowed to go to a school which teaches them about their faith.
    freedom of religion doesn't extend to education. It's the right to express your religion not to indoctrinate other people into it.

    Still not how it works.
    read what you said. You could say most of that without religion the only difference is the big man in the sky.

    That's just rude. The simple fact is that children aren't going to be interested in listening to you ramble on about how society wants you to behave. And I still maintain it is a good way of teaching morals:

    Students with high levels of religious commitment were noted to do better than students with low levels of religious commitment, and they also have more resistance to cheat on a paper-and-pencil test than children from secular schools.
    citation? And most of the time you don't need to ramble on you know...
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    (Original post by Aph)
    freedom of religion doesn't extend to education. It's the right to express your religion not to indoctrinate other people into it.

    read what you said. You could say most of that without religion the only difference is the big man in the sky.


    citation? And most of the time you don't need to ramble on you know...
    There's nothing wrong with faith schools if they're doing well to educate kids. Faith schools have year after year topped the primary school league tables in the UK.

    If you're trying to explain it in terms of society and moral reasons, you might as well be giving them a philosophy lesson.
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    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    There's nothing wrong with faith schools if they're doing well to educate kids. Faith schools have year after year topped the primary school league tables in the UK.

    If you're trying to explain it in terms of society and moral reasons, you might as well be giving them a philosophy lesson.
    That's a post hoc ergo proctor HoC argument and doesn't prove that faith schools are better.

    Nothing wrong with that.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    That's a post hoc ergo proctor HoC argument and doesn't prove that faith schools are better.

    Nothing wrong with that.
    Meh.
    Yes there is - if you're trying to lecture a five year old on why he shouldn't hit his mate across the face with a chair because society frowns upon it, he's just going to ignore you. Give him a clip round the ear and tell him it's bad. All that's needed.

    Anyway, this argument's not going anywhere now.
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    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    Well by the law of averages there'll probably be 10% fanatically religious, 5% angry atheist, 15% atheist and 70% religious.
    You just proved my point

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    (Original post by Andy98)
    You just proved my point

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    Well let's just say there are a lot of ********s
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    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    Give him a clip round the ear and tell him it's bad. All that's needed.
    So, no need for superstitious beliefs then.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    So, no need for superstitious beliefs then.
    And no need for snidey, sarcastic comments from ****s then!
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    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    And no need for snidey, sarcastic comments from ****s then!
    My comment was neither snidey nor sarcastic. It was made wholeheartedly. No institution that benefits from public funding or tax breaks should be indoctrinating under eighteens in any religion. In fact, it should be illegal for any educational establishment to do so.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    My comment was neither snidey nor sarcastic. It was made wholeheartedly. No institution that benefits from public funding or tax breaks should be indoctrinating under eighteens in any religion. In fact, it should be illegal for any educational establishment to do so.
    That's my view too.
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    I joined the MHoC to debate against other members who are proposing bills, I did not join the MHoC to debate against ghosts; that is what UK Politics is for. I do not know who had the idea to post a bill that no one submitted but it is a bad idea, should not have happened, and the bills chosen is not on an interesting topic to debate.
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    I joined the MHoC to debate against other members who are proposing bills, I did not join the MHoC to debate against ghosts; that is what UK Politics is for. I do not know who had the idea to post a bill that no one submitted but it is a bad idea, should not have happened, and the bills chosen is not on an interesting topic to debate.
    If you wanted to debate against ghosts, you would imagine people on a Southern train, I suppose (note to the younger members of the House, they did once exist).
    *
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    (Original post by DMcGovern)
    Well let's just say there are a lot of ********s
    Yep, if they have pulse they're probably one

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    I find this bill to be wholly reasonable. A child should not be barred from attending a school because of their religion or lack thereof - such discrimination is disgusting. Furthermore, we should not be encouraging the use of taxpayer's money to fund religious indoctrination.

    So though it is a huge shame that this bill can't be passed again because it's nonsensical resurrection prevents someone from rewriting the basic idea into a new bill and to then expect said bill to be debated... Aye.
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    The problem with the whole 'religion teaches morals' viewpoint is that, if that is true, it must necessarily also mean that it teaches them to substitute dogma for reasoning.
 
 
 
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