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Speculative History: What would history be like if-? Watch

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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    But it is a game with with rules or at least principles.

    You change a real world event; in this case the abdication. You can change anything in consequence of your alteration.

    What you cannot do not do is:-

    (a) change anything prior to that event as time is linear; or

    (b) change anything not in consequence of that event, so Sunderland still beats Preston North End in the 1937 Cup Final.

    I don't think Fullofsurprises was breaching these "rules". I think she had simply overlooked that Churchill was Edward's leading supporter in politics.

    This idea that had Edward remained king, Britain would have been closer to Germany has become very fashionable but it is perhaps more plausible that one consequence of Edward remaining king could have been that Churchill's Wilderness Years would have ended more quickly and he would have been in government or even PM by 1938.
    I didn't overlook Churchill's support - I just couldn't think of a way to make the scenario work without delving a little more deeply than I had time for into possible cracks in it - so I flipped it to make the story work. :blush:

    I suppose WSC might have been in opposition to the marriage if good evidence had been put before him that the Nazis were in collusion with Wallace. I seem to remember reading that he was unaware at the time of her flirtations with Von Ribbentrop. I should have remembered that and written a discovery into my story.

    I like your proposed scenario that it would actually have speeded Winston's rise to power. Perhaps then, no Munich Agreement and Britain bolsters France and denies Hitler Austria? The Nazi leader's initial plans are foiled, his economy crashes, the people turn ugly and Hitler ends up in court along with Himmler and Goering. Germany has another go at democracy. The EU is formed in 1943 after Mussolini is crushed following a joint British-German destruction of his forces. The first EU President is Winston Churchill.
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    (Original post by Fenice)
    Why? Churchill remained deeply unpopular with the Tories well into the war and only became PM because of his taciturn refusal to serve under Halifax
    Because of the subsequent mythologising around Churchill, it is hard to recover his true level of popularity in the Party but bear in mind that Chamberlain thought it necessary to recall Churchill to be First Lord of the Admiralty on the day war broke out despite his failure in that role in WWI. That may suggest, at least by 1939, a level of support greater than than those who had publicly identified with him.


    I don't see how Edward remaining King would have had any bearing on this rise. Without the war starting he was just a turncoat and a war mongerer. Having been on the winning side on the comparably trivial issue of the King's choice of partner would not have been enough to swing this decades-old reputation.

    If anything it would have lowered his chances. Is it possible that had Edward remained given Churchill's fervent loyalty to him the latter would have moderated his position on war or felt unable to serve as PM and the cabinet having not just the disagreement of much of his party and the war cabinet but his King as well?
    That is another alternative view
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    Because of the subsequent mythologising around Churchill, it is hard to recover his true level of popularity in the Party but bear in mind that Chamberlain thought it necessary to recall Churchill to be First Lord of the Admiralty on the day war broke out despite his failure in that role in WWI. That may suggest, at least by 1939, a level of support greater than than those who had publicly identified with him.
    This move by Chamberlain was due to popular and not parliamentary support (at least on the Tory side). There was graffiti all over London calling for Churchill. It is well documented that in the Tories he continued to be decisively unpopular. It is highly unlikely that Edward remaining King would have had any positive effect on his rise and indeed I think it may well have been the one thing capable of stopping it at this stage.
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    (Original post by Fenice)
    This move by Chamberlain was due to popular and not parliamentary support (at least on the Tory side). There was graffiti all over London calling for Churchill. It is well documented that in the Tories he continued to be decisively unpopular. It is highly unlikely that Edward remaining King would have had any positive effect on his rise and indeed I think it may well have been the one thing capable of stopping it at this stage.
    It's difficult to imagine that Nazi-sympathising King Edward would have seen eye to eye with Churchill on much, once he'd been in the job for a while and Winston had become more closely familiar with the effect of his views.
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    Another scenario:

    Charles Babbage and Ada Lovelace succeed in producing a working Analytic Engine in the early 1850s and begin the computerisation of the world 100 years early.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Another scenario:

    Charles Babbage and Ada Lovelace succeed in producing a working Analytic Engine in the early 1850s and begin the computerisation of the world 100 years early.
    Skynet thats all i'm saying...
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    (Original post by Napp)
    Skynet thats all i'm saying...
    I expect 'Java' would now be called 'Lovelace'. :teehee:
 
 
 
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