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If Brexiters are so confident of victory then should they accept a second referendum? Watch

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    (Original post by Ambitious1999)
    I'm fed up of Brexiters harping on about democracy and that there should not be a second referendum.

    Well if they are so confident of Britians hatred of the EU and so passionate about democracy then they should relish a second referendum.

    But the reality is Brexiters are Scared of losing. They know fine well that a lot of Brexit voters now regret what they did. Many thought it would never happen. So take them aside.
    Then among the Brexit voters are some realists who never thought of the mess that we are now in that soon all that may be left of the Great Britain they love is England totally on its own, without Scotland or NI or the protection of the EU. Take them aside and you've probably got less than 40% pro Brexit and over 60% remain.

    Of that 40% you've got mostly retired people who arn't worried about recessions, unemployment or loss of EU funding of vocational training and further education, that's around 20% And of course nationalists and small minded racist bigots making up the rest.

    We want a second referendum, its in the interests of the majority!
    You sound childish
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    You can't keep calling for do-overs when you don't get the result you want. You all had your chance to vote on June 23rd. If you missed it, or you changed your mind, too bad.

    And what if Remain only wins marginally this time? Will that result be binding, or will you go again? And if you don't go again, why the double standard?

    Adding all these extra conditions like a 60% minimum for Leave is simply favouring the status quo and making things harder for the opposition because you don't want them to win.

    You lost. Get over it. Leavers have no reason to re-call a vote they already won just because you're upset.
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    (Original post by Ambitious1999)
    I'm fed up of Brexiters harping on about democracy and that there should not be a second referendum.

    Well if they are so confident of Britians hatred of the EU and so passionate about democracy then they should relish a second referendum.

    But the reality is Brexiters are Scared of losing. They know fine well that a lot of Brexit voters now regret what they did. Many thought it would never happen. So take them aside.
    Then among the Brexit voters are some realists who never thought of the mess that we are now in that soon all that may be left of the Great Britain they love is England totally on its own, without Scotland or NI or the protection of the EU. Take them aside and you've probably got less than 40% pro Brexit and over 60% remain.

    Of that 40% you've got mostly retired people who arn't worried about recessions, unemployment or loss of EU funding of vocational training and further education, that's around 20% And of course nationalists and small minded racist bigots making up the rest.

    We want a second referendum, its in the interests of the majority!
    IF there is a second referendum, there will be riots.
    A new Prime Minister has already been appointed because the previous one accepted defeat of an overall Brexit result.
    The government has also stated that there will be a debate, but NO second referendum.

    Lets face it, you Remainers (or should we say Remoaners?) have lost. Get over it and stop crying like a baby. Try and deal with the changes that has already been made. We can't turn back time and change the past more than we would like to!
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    (Original post by Boreism)
    IF there is a second referendum, there will be riots.
    A new Prime Minister has already been appointed because the previous one accepted defeat of an overall Brexit result.
    The government has also stated that there will be a debate, but NO second referendum.

    Lets face it, you Remainers (or should we say Remoaners?) have lost. Get over it and stop crying like a baby. Try and deal with the changes that has already been made. We can't turn back time and change the past more than we would like to!
    But one thing is that a small proportion of Brexit voters (not all) but some comprise of racist bigots, ultra right wing fanatics and Stormfront members.

    There are none of these racist people in the remain camp. We support multiculturalism.

    That should be enough to make moderate Brexiters distance themselves from Brexit camp and its unsavoury members.

    Racism and hate crime has increased since Brexit claimed a massive majority victory of a huge 4% (or what they think is a major victory)
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    (Original post by Ambitious1999)
    But one thing is that a small proportion of Brexit voters (not all) but some comprise of racist bigots, ultra right wing fanatics and Stormfront members.

    There are none of these racist people in the remain camp. We support multiculturalism.

    That should be enough to make moderate Brexiters distance themselves from Brexit camp and its unsavoury members.

    Racism and hate crime has increased since Brexit claimed a massive majority victory of a huge 4% (or what they think is a major victory)
    Well not all Brexiters are racist. But my main point was another referendum will cause riots and unrest.
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    A question for anyone calling for a revote.
    You say 52 to 48 wasn't a big enough gap, what if a revote comes back at 51 to ,49?
    Another vote?
    Best of three?
    How about if it is the other way round and remainers win 52 to 48?
    Will that suddenly become big enough?
    Do you keep going until you get what you want?
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    (Original post by caravaggio2)
    A question for anyone calling for a revote.
    You say 52 to 48 wasn't a big enough gap, what if a revote comes back at 51 to ,49?
    Another vote?
    Best of three?
    How about if it is the other way round and remainers win 52 to 48?
    Will that suddenly become big enough?
    Do you keep going until you get what you want?
    I'm quite sure it will be a much bigger gap especially taking into account those Brexit voters who now regret their choice. Perhaps 60 remain 40 leave
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Would you, having already survived the first revolver barrel in Russian roulette, willing prove your bravery by going for the second and third barrels?
    We've been shot right in the face by the first shot tbh.
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    Toys out of the pram much.

    We lost, so lets have another vote cuz we might win! Fun fact, percentage wise older people overwhelmingly overshadowed younger people in voting so if remainers (which 75% of young people were) had gotten of their arse and voted maybe we would still be in. Its exactly like the millennial generation to make a lot of fuss but actually do absolutely nothing. Speaking as part of it, the trend of getting vocal on fb or jumping on people for speaking 'wrongly' to feel good about oneself coupled with the constant need for distractions and lack of drive to actually seriously commit. Of course this isn't all but I shouldnt need to include such a disclaimer - its merely for the purposes of distracting from generalisation=false which is an argument trotted out when people cant accurately refute an identifiable pattern.

    I have no idea if in or out is better, there are points of economy on one side and points of democracy on the other. Both had legitimate arguments and the populace made its mind up, if they're regretting that choice then tough - they were confident enough to make it. The same goes for remainers and for those who didn't vote at all. I'm not hugely happy with the result but with the establishment coming out as massively pro-eu at a time of huge discontent with the political system, particularly as people feel ignored by the elite was bound to prompt this result. Maybe it will see a return to politics in the interest of the people where legitimisation is given to concerns from all walks of life, those who are seen as 'less educated' (as the common rhetoric is) have no less of a democratic right than anyone else. Either convince them they are wrong through facts and logic or accept they simply hold a different position.

    (Original post by Ambitious1999)

    Of that 40% you've got mostly retired people who arn't worried about recessions, unemployment or loss of EU funding of vocational training and further education, that's around 20% And of course nationalists and small minded racist bigots making up the rest.

    We want a second referendum, its in the interests of the majority!
    Statements like this are part of the reason remain lost. As well as its 'all immigration concerns are racist' BS and outright lies that caused people to default to their original position before the debate began as all the facts and discussions around the issue were unreliable sources. One side said something untrue, the other countered with something equally false.

    The elderly have lived through the EU, they have seen it develop from EEC to political union and have decided they do not like it. They have children, grandchildren, do you really imagine they arent voting in their interests? They have picked what they believe to be best based on their life experiences and if we are placing a value on democratic rights to opinions I'd say this ranks higher than some 25 year old who just finished a degree in liberal arts and has never worked a day in their life but believes they know more because they have a mickey mouse qualification.

    As for 20% racists and bigots, I assume you are using hyperbole to make a point as thats patent nonsense. It also depends on how you define these terms, twenty years ago a question that wouldnt be needed. Do you mean the actual sensible definition of 'hatred or prejudice against all members of another race based on their racial characteristics' or some progressive nuevo claptrap?
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    (Original post by Ambitious1999)
    I'm fed up of Brexiters harping on about democracy and that there should not be a second referendum.

    Well if they are so confident of Britians hatred of the EU and so passionate about democracy then they should relish a second referendum.

    But the reality is Brexiters are Scared of losing. They know fine well that a lot of Brexit voters now regret what they did. Many thought it would never happen. So take them aside.
    Then among the Brexit voters are some realists who never thought of the mess that we are now in that soon all that may be left of the Great Britain they love is England totally on its own, without Scotland or NI or the protection of the EU. Take them aside and you've probably got less than 40% pro Brexit and over 60% remain.

    Of that 40% you've got mostly retired people who arn't worried about recessions, unemployment or loss of EU funding of vocational training and further education, that's around 20% And of course nationalists and small minded racist bigots making up the rest.

    We want a second referendum, its in the interests of the majority!
    Are you actually old enough to vote? Might have been a clever thing to do to give 16/17 year olds the vote.
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    There is only one result that you will accept and that is to have Britain in the EU. You don't care how this result is achieved, as long as it happens.

    (Original post by Ambitious1999)
    I'm fed up of Brexiters harping on about democracy and that there should not be a second referendum.


    Well if they are so confident of Britians hatred of the EU and so passionate about democracy then they should relish a second referendum.

    But the reality is Brexiters are Scared of losing. They know fine well that a lot of Brexit voters now regret what they did. Many thought it would never happen. So take them aside.
    Then among the Brexit voters are some realists who never thought of the mess that we are now in that soon all that may be left of the Great Britain they love is England totally on its own, without Scotland or NI or the protection of the EU. Take them aside and you've probably got less than 40% pro Brexit and over 60% remain.

    Of that 40% you've got mostly retired people who arn't worried about recessions, unemployment or loss of EU funding of vocational training and further education, that's around 20% And of course nationalists and small minded racist bigots making up the rest.

    We want a second referendum, its in the interests of the majority!
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    (Original post by Ambitious1999)
    I'm fed up of Brexiters harping on about democracy and that there should not be a second referendum.

    Well if they are so confident of Britians hatred of the EU and so passionate about democracy then they should relish a second referendum.

    But the reality is Brexiters are Scared of losing. They know fine well that a lot of Brexit voters now regret what they did. Many thought it would never happen. So take them aside.
    Then among the Brexit voters are some realists who never thought of the mess that we are now in that soon all that may be left of the Great Britain they love is England totally on its own, without Scotland or NI or the protection of the EU. Take them aside and you've probably got less than 40% pro Brexit and over 60% remain.

    Of that 40% you've got mostly retired people who arn't worried about recessions, unemployment or loss of EU funding of vocational training and further education, that's around 20% And of course nationalists and small minded racist bigots making up the rest.

    We want a second referendum, its in the interests of the majority!
    u sir are an idiot
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    Wanting a second referendum is like losing a football game and demanding a rematch because the fans apparently regret not supporting the team that lost.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Yes and there are also people that don't want and want a 2nd referendum. So maybe you should accept that as well if you "accept" democracy.
    democracy is tyranny by the majority. leave is the majority.
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    (Original post by Ambitious1999)
    I'm fed up of Brexiters harping on about democracy and that there should not be a second referendum.

    Well if they are so confident of Britians hatred of the EU and so passionate about democracy then they should relish a second referendum.

    But the reality is Brexiters are Scared of losing. They know fine well that a lot of Brexit voters now regret what they did. Many thought it would never happen. So take them aside.
    Then among the Brexit voters are some realists who never thought of the mess that we are now in that soon all that may be left of the Great Britain they love is England totally on its own, without Scotland or NI or the protection of the EU. Take them aside and you've probably got less than 40% pro Brexit and over 60% remain.

    Of that 40% you've got mostly retired people who arn't worried about recessions, unemployment or loss of EU funding of vocational training and further education, that's around 20% And of course nationalists and small minded racist bigots making up the rest.

    We want a second referendum, its in the interests of the majority!
    9/12, or 75%, of regions voted leave.
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    (Original post by Ambitious1999)
    a lot of those who voted Brexit now regret that they did
    Pro-Remain media fiction.

    There's another polls suggesting more remainers regret their voting choice than Leave regretters.

    Lastly it's just sore losing. The pro-Remain PM who called the referendum had more than enough time to call the shots, setting up the rules, they went with a nice and democratic clear majority.

    48% might be a lot but it's still less than half.

    With Brexiters refusing a second referendum, they are being cowards, we look down on them. But they have the chance to prove they can win again and be great, for their sake lets hope they take that opportunity.
    Firstly that's a nonsense emotive rhetorical argument. You think Leave voters are "cowards" for having no interest in the whims of a vocal bunch of sore losers.

    Secondly if Leavers are cowards, why did they vote for the apparently "doom & gloom rock & a hard place" option, while Remainers seem scared shitless of doing anything without a big thumbs up from Papa Brussels first?

    And Leavers are the cowards?

    Would you be so eager on more referendums if Brexit won again? Would you give Brexit supporters the time of day if they dared you to hold another referendum, especially with an intellectually hollow argument going "na na you're too scared too!", in the event of a Remain win?

    Neverendum is pointless and moronic.

    Just accept you're being a sore loser. It happens, be an adult and recognise it and move on. If you're in love with the EU that much there's still plenty of it left (for now) so make use of that much touted visa-free travel and move. If not it's time to be grown ups and take what life throws at you and make the best of it in a mature fashion.
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    The regret thing is propaganda and BS-and if tyhere is a 2nd, there can be many many more
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    If Remain had won narrowly you can be sure Leavers would be pushing for a second referendum.

    Nigel Farage would have claimed it as a major step forward for nearly half the country to be rejecting the EU and would continue to campaign.

    The difference is the timescales. Leavers would be realistic, they wouldn't get a referendum in 2 years, they would be looking at the time of the next EU treaty or a 10 to 15 year timescale. Remainers want a referendum before we leave the EU which means next couple of years - unlikely to happen.

    The 10 to 15 year timescale is more relevant for a "rejoin" referendum, which may seem unimaginable at the moment but it would come back on the agenda if basically these three things happened:

    1. The closer integration of the Eurozone countries makes the Euro finally work and the EU enjoys improved fortunes.
    2. The UK struggles outside the EU and goes in to a period of stagnation.
    3. The Conservatives stay in power for most of that period, and the political pendulum is ripe for a 1997 style shift towards a reformed Labour party or a Lab/Lib Dem coalition both of whom are campaigning on a ticket of rejoining the EU.

    In this case you could see a new UK government saying look Brexit didn't work, it's time to reintegrate with Europe.

    Reintegrating with Europe would mean different terms - we'd have to commit (in the longer term) to joining the Euro, wouldn't have the opt outs and vetos that we do now. But the EU would probably be more favourable to the idea of expanding again by bringing the UK back in, than it is to us now, so may be more willing to be generous in terms of what it offers us.

    By that point the demographics of the population will have changed - some of the older Leave voters will be replaced by the disillusioned pro-EU generation and it may be harder to defeat a Rejoin referendum than Leavers may think now - especially if the sunny uplands of UK outside the EU haven't materialised and people are saying why have Ireland, France etc done better than us.
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    If Remain had won narrowly you can be sure Leavers would be pushing for a second referendum.

    Nigel Farage would have claimed it as a major step forward for nearly half the country to be rejecting the EU and would continue to campaign.

    The difference is the timescales. Leavers would be realistic, they wouldn't get a referendum in 2 years, they would be looking at the time of the next EU treaty or a 10 to 15 year timescale. Remainers want a referendum before we leave the EU which means next couple of years - unlikely to happen.

    The 10 to 15 year timescale is more relevant for a "rejoin" referendum, which may seem unimaginable at the moment but it would come back on the agenda if basically these three things happened:

    1. The closer integration of the Eurozone countries makes the Euro finally work and the EU enjoys improved fortunes.
    2. The UK struggles outside the EU and goes in to a period of stagnation.
    3. The Conservatives stay in power for most of that period, and the political pendulum is ripe for a 1997 style shift towards a reformed Labour party or a Lab/Lib Dem coalition both of whom are campaigning on a ticket of rejoining the EU.

    In this case you could see a new UK government saying look Brexit didn't work, it's time to reintegrate with Europe.

    Reintegrating with Europe would mean different terms - we'd have to commit (in the longer term) to joining the Euro, wouldn't have the opt outs and vetos that we do now. But the EU would probably be more favourable to the idea of expanding again by bringing the UK back in, than it is to us now, so may be more willing to be generous in terms of what it offers us.

    By that point the demographics of the population will have changed - some of the older Leave voters will be replaced by the disillusioned pro-EU generation and it may be harder to defeat a Rejoin referendum than Leavers may think now - especially if the sunny uplands of UK outside the EU haven't materialised and people are saying why have Ireland, France etc done better than us.
    I agree with most of what you have said, in terms of leave's reaction had the vote gone the other way, the possibility of rejoining the EU as well as the terms we would be forced to compromise on in order to rejoin. The one big area which I cannot help but find unlikely, is scenario where the EU performs better than the UK. I voted remain under the belief that in the short term, Britain's fairly strong economy would, along with the other two major economies of Europe be able to just about strong enough to keep the basketcase of Southern European banks from sinking this entire project, optimistic that in the long term Eastern Europe would develop and eventually the strain on UK taxpayers would be relieved by newly prosperous, Westernised Slavs.

    Now look at the EU, 18 months of bloodshed in France is going to seriously take it's toll on the real estate and tourism industry, Deutsche Bank, once hailed as the cornerstone of European financial stability has serious structural problems, the rise of the far-right in Europe creating an extremely toxic atmosphere for just about everyone and this is all on top of the existing problems of toxic assets held by Southern Europe's banks. It's not going to end with them sitting pretty while the UK hungrily looks in through the window from the cold. It's a complete ****ing mess right now, these experts were the same experts who only 2 years ago wanted to ascend Turkey into the UK, a country which only last night had to violently crush a military coup.
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    (Original post by Gora The Xplorer)
    The one big area which I cannot help but find unlikely, is scenario where the EU performs better than the UK.
    I agree I think that's the most unlikely part of it.

    I think one of the parts of the debate that got clouded was the idea of Leave = risk, Remain = prosperity. The EU and the Eurozone especially has a difficult future even aside from terrorism, instability that would happen whether the UK was in or out.

    There is a risk that the EU will stagnate now and as a first mover leaving, the UK has an opportunity, if it gets things right, to get ahead of the rest of Europe in re-orienting its trading relationship with the rest of the world, as it will be free to strike its own deals.

    But getting it right also means focusing on getting the UK economy right, which will involve a lot of investment in infrastructure and skills and working out what we have to offer the rest of the world, what we can export and then the trade arrangements will sort out where we can sell it.

    The risk is that some of the Brexiteers really aren't interested in that bigger view, what they want is just to slash working regulations to drive down the cost of labour here, strike free trade agreements that make it easy for them to outsource to even cheaper foreign labour, and basically enjoy easy increased profits while living standards for most people deteriorate.

    What gives me a little hope is that Theresa May seems to be revealing herself as more strategic than I had thought, and is already talking about having a proper co-ordinated industrial strategy. Also David Davis who will now head up Brexit department has come out against cutting working regulations saying the working classes voted to leave, its not right to reward them by taking away their rights.
 
 
 
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