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B1013 – Nationalisation of British Rail Services Bill 2016 Watch

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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    You also take on the (gross) profits. It's pretty clear to see that, assuming ceteris paribus, a nationalised system costs less (and my argument is that ceteris paribus essentially holds here).
    Well, the profits are relatively small. Less than 5%.

    It makes no sense to encourage the tax payer to take the risk of a loss making entity that will never make money. It will end up like another British rail, just hemorrhaging money due to mismanagement.

    At least with private companies there is some inventive to reduce costs and etc even if the market conditions are highly unusual.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Well, the profits are relatively small. Less than 5%.

    It makes no sense to encourage the tax payer to take the risk of a loss making entity that will never make money. It will end up like another British rail, just hemorrhaging money due to mismanagement.

    At least with private companies there is some inventive to reduce costs and etc even if the market conditions are highly unusual.
    There isn't that incentive while the subsidy is provided. The state should either remove the subsidy or nationalise. I prefer the latter.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    There isn't that incentive while the subsidy is provided. The state should either remove the subsidy or nationalise. I prefer the latter.
    Well, all major rail networks are subsidised. I believe the UK has one of the lowest rates of subsidies in Europe. I don't see any particular reason why the UK Government would do a much better job in charge of the railway in the lon term.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Well, all major rail networks are subsidised. I believe the UK has one of the lowest rates of subsidies in Europe. I don't see any particular reason why the UK Government would do a much better job in charge of the railway in the lon term.
    Money is saved unless it does worse.
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    Peter bloody Hitchens thinks the railways should be renationalised. Just food for thought for all the Tories who think they have to oppose this just to keep their true-blue credentials.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    There isn't that incentive while the subsidy is provided. The state should either remove the subsidy or nationalise. I prefer the latter.
    Ummm, that makes no sense, unless you're suggesting there is an effective 100% tax on any additional profits. Subsidies are based on revenues, not profits.

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    Food for thought on the subsidies, most of the subsidies are direct to Network Rail, a chunk on crossrail, but in terms of the operators themselves, there is a "negative" net subsidy, the operators combined PAY 802m to the government rather than the other way around.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Ummm, that makes no sense, unless you're suggesting there is an effective 100% tax on any additional profits. Subsidies are based on revenues, not profits.

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    I'm assuming that the companies are already as efficient as they have incentives to become under a system where there is no competitive drive.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    I'm assuming that the companies are already as efficient as they have incentives to become under a system where there is no competitive drive.
    A lack of direct competition reduces the incentive to be competitive and cost effective, keeping the majority of any extra profits is an incentive to increase profits within the terms of the contract.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    A lack of direct competition reduces the incentive to be competitive and cost effective, keeping the majority of any extra profits is an incentive to increase profits within the terms of the contract.

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    Except you're assuming strategies to increase profit are risk-free, which seems untrue to me. In a non-competitive private market, there are much lower incentives to take risky but +EV strategies because the horizon for existing level of profits extends much further.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Peter bloody Hitchens thinks the railways should be renationalised. Just food for thought for all the Tories who think they have to oppose this just to keep their true-blue credentials.
    Anybody who did so for those reasons is incredibly sad and not somebody who's opinion should be cared about.

    Anyhow, the government will put the alternative to the House tomorrow.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Anybody who did so for those reasons is incredibly sad and not somebody who's opinion should be cared about.

    Anyhow, the government will put the alternative to the House tomorrow.
    I think there's a lot of people in this House support or oppose certain things based on an underlying idea of what their preferred ideology would instruct them to do rather than a fair and frank evaluation of facts.

    I look forward to seeing the alternative.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    I think there's a lot of people in this House support or oppose certain things based on an underlying idea of what their preferred ideology would instruct them to do rather than a fair and frank evaluation of facts.

    I look forward to seeing the alternative.
    Without being offensive i think that's far more true of Ukip, Labour and the Socialists than the Tories, Liberals or on here Greens (RL certainly, their nutty) on here (though i acknowledge that Labour is split between the likes of you and ideologues)..
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Well, the profits are relatively small. Less than 5%.

    It makes no sense to encourage the tax payer to take the risk of a loss making entity that will never make money. It will end up like another British rail, just hemorrhaging money due to mismanagement.

    At least with private companies there is some inventive to reduce costs and etc even if the market conditions are highly unusual.
    The under 5% profits is not the case. *The figure quoted is that less than 3% of the ticket price is profits to the train operating companies. *This excludes profits from the train leasing companies, the sub-contractors to Network Rail, and any from organisations using rail property at less than market rates.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Food for thought on the subsidies, most of the subsidies are direct to Network Rail, a chunk on crossrail, but in terms of the operators themselves, there is a "negative" net subsidy, the operators combined PAY 802m to the government rather than the other way around.

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    Network Rail's inefficiency and the whole industry of delay blaming (and then not passing on all the fines to the customer) is one reason why I have proposed some ideas for a second reading.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Well, all major rail networks are subsidised. I believe the UK has one of the lowest rates of subsidies in Europe. I don't see any particular reason why the UK Government would do a much better job in charge of the railway in the lon term.
    I am proposing that much of the UK rail network is more locally managed.
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    (Original post by barnetlad)
    The under 5% profits is not the case. *The figure quoted is that less than 3% of the ticket price is profits to the train operating companies. *This excludes profits from the train leasing companies, the sub-contractors to Network Rail, and any from organisations using rail property at less than market rates.
    I don't know where you got that from. From what I have read, there is a 3.4% overall profit margin. Network rail makes 1-2%.

    https://fullfact.org/news/do-train-o...ssive-profits/
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    (Original post by barnetlad)
    Network Rail's inefficiency and the whole industry of delay blaming (and then not passing on all the fines to the customer) is one reason why I have proposed some ideas for a second reading.
    Network Rails inefficiencies aren't solved by nationalising the rest, it seems to be a case of admitting something is inefficient so nationalise the rest to make those inefficiencies look normal.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Network Rails inefficiencies aren't solved by nationalising the rest, it seems to be a case of admitting something is inefficient so nationalise the rest to make those inefficiencies look normal.

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    That is why I would like to see train and track under one operation.
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    (Original post by barnetlad)
    That is why I would like to see train and track under one operation.
    Privatise national rail then

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