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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    Come on get real. Is KEN CLARKE going to vote to leave the EU?
    I think this is, no offence, a case of "What planet are you living on"

    Then what about the SNP - May is now on record on saying "No Clause 50 without SNP input" - I dont think the SNP are going to be triggering that in a hurry.

    Then there is a total lack of negotiators - BREXIT does not have a single one.

    The whole concept of leaving the EU is just a "barmy army" pipe dream - it makes no rational sense.

    First law of doctoring (or anything) is "Do no harm" - Doing Brexit is doing harm, it would be immoral to trigger clause 50.
    I'm sorry, what planet are YOU living on?

    Mrs Sturgeon can beat her little drum all she likes but the UK Parliament is supreme over the Scottish Parliament (s.28(7) Scotland Act 1998) and will quash her. Also, you need only look at her disastrous trip to Brussels recently to see just how little influence she has outside of Scotland.

    In any case, it is the prerogative of the government to see through Brexit without any vote by Parliament (like it is with the resolution of every referendum result). Parliament's main role will be to repeal the 1972 Act.

    The government not only has very capable Ministers and SoSs but is also backed by an army of civil servants, the momentum of the vote and economic leverage.
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    (Original post by A1112787)
    I'm sorry, what planet are YOU living on?

    Mrs Sturgeon can beat her little drum all she likes but the UK Parliament is supreme over the Scottish Parliament (s.28(7) Scotland Act 1998) and will quash her. Also, you need only look at her disastrous trip to Brussels recently to see just how little influence she has outside of Scotland.

    In any case, it is the prerogative of the government to see through Brexit without any vote by Parliament (like it is with the resolution of every referendum result). Parliament's main role will be to repeal the 1972 Act.

    The government not only has very capable Ministers and SoSs but is also backed by an army of civil servants, the momentum of the vote and economic leverage.
    I'm trying to ascertain what "helpful" means at present as TSR said a post of mine was not helpful (perhaps all of them).

    So I will not respond , although I do , of course, disagree with you for very valid reasons, but I'm not sure if they are helpful or not.

    I'm a bit confused at present - I'll sleep on it.
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    May has told her civil servants to find a BUILDING for the new Brexit department.

    There are going to be hundreds of civil servants working on this project, the wheels are in motion already even if she has said she is holding off on invoking article 50.

    It's happening whether you like it or not. One million people marched against the Iraq War (still fewer than the majority Leave had) and that still went ahead . There hasn't been a demonstration that has come anywhere near close to those numbers since, even all the anti-austerity marches.

    The debate is meaningless because

    1) The bit about voter turnout/majority will be flat out dismissed as it's retrospective and they should have thought of that in the first place if they wanted to avoid a Leave win
    2) It's just a debate, the disgruntled big players might throw out a few soundbites but it's not attached to any vote or lawmaking.
    3) Tory solidarity with a new leader and reshuffled cabinet, none of the new cabinet are going to throw their toys out of the pram and risk stepping on the toes of their new boss after only a couple of months. The opposition is hopeless apart from the SNP and May has already told Sturgeon who is in charge.
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    (Original post by ManiaMuse)
    May has told her civil servants to find a BUILDING for the new Brexit department.

    There are going to be hundreds of civil servants working on this project, the wheels are in motion already even if she has said she is holding off on invoking article 50.

    It's happening whether you like it or not. One million people marched against the Iraq War (still fewer than the majority Leave had) and that still went ahead . There hasn't been a demonstration that has come anywhere near close to those numbers since, even all the anti-austerity marches.

    The debate is meaningless because

    1) The bit about voter turnout/majority will be flat out dismissed as it's retrospective and they should have thought of that in the first place if they wanted to avoid a Leave win
    2) It's just a debate, the disgruntled big players might throw out a few soundbites but it's not attached to any vote or lawmaking.
    3) Tory solidarity with a new leader and reshuffled cabinet, none of the new cabinet are going to throw their toys out of the pram and risk stepping on the toes of their new boss after only a couple of months. The opposition is hopeless apart from the SNP and May has already told Sturgeon who is in charge.
    You're in denial
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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    Second Referendum more likely now because:

    a) Both Labour challengers to Corbyn say they support a second referendum, this time on the "deal" arranged by Boris.

    b) LibDems have already said they will be campaigning on REMAIN or return.

    c) The second referendum petition will be heard by MPs in parliament (5th September).

    d) The government only have a majority of 12 (will not take many by-elections or defections to clobber that).

    e) Boris is already on record of being in favour of second referendum.

    Thus if REMAIN organise massive demonstration in London on 5th of September (date of the parliament debate) if might , it might just swing it a bit..

    I mean anyone can tell the economy is potentially shot to pieces, its like the lull before the storm hits the fan.
    Are (most) Remoaners STILL going on about this, I mean seriously?

    We already have a new government; David Cameron accepted the result by resigning and we are still leaving the EU as a second referendum is still rejected. Dealing with change isn't your forte is it OP?
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    (Original post by Boreism)
    Are (most) Remoaners STILL going on about this, I mean seriously?

    We already have a new government; David Cameron accepted the result by resigning and we are still leaving the EU as a second referendum is still rejected. Dealing with change isn't your forte is it OP?
    Not most, just FredorJohn and jneill

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Not most, just FredorJohn and jneill

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I would've thought these threads would die down by now...well clearly not. :yawn:
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    (Original post by Boreism)
    I would've thought these threads would die down by now...well clearly not. :yawn:
    There are some people still in denial

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    There are some people still in denial

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    FROM TODAYS GUARDIAN:Worth noting that BOTH challengers to Corbyn now are calling for SECOND referendum

    From Guardian:"Smith, who has promised that Labour will campaign for a second referendum on the terms of Brexit, further claims that “in his heart of hearts” he believes that a credible Labour party under his leadership could still keep Britain in the EU despite last month’s vote."

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...st-anti-corbyn

    This is along side LibDems, Greens and rump True Conservatives that that include Ken Clarke (Not anti-immgrants types who should really be in UKIP).I honestly do not think its over until the fat lady sings and way beyond that - do not let the quasi-fascist may-ites take over the country in a silent Coup d'etate(no one voted for her or her manifesto - not even the 150,000 tory members, no one in the entire country - where is the democracy???)

    GET MAY OUT AND THE EU IN!!!

    (at least the EU had 48% - what vote did May get? NONE)
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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    FROM TODAYS GUARDIAN:Worth noting that BOTH challengers to Corbyn now are calling for SECOND referendum

    From Guardian:"Smith, who has promised that Labour will campaign for a second referendum on the terms of Brexit, further claims that “in his heart of hearts” he believes that a credible Labour party under his leadership could still keep Britain in the EU despite last month’s vote."

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...st-anti-corbyn

    This is along side LibDems, Greens and rump True Conservatives that that include Ken Clarke (Not anti-immgrants types who should really be in UKIP).I honestly do not think its over until the fat lady sings and way beyond that - do not let the quasi-fascist may-ites take over the country in a silent Coup d'etate(no one voted for her or her manifesto - not even the 150,000 tory members, no one in the entire country - where is the democracy???)

    GET MAY OUT AND THE EU IN!!!

    (at least the EU had 48% - what vote did May get? NONE)
    Omg, two people who aren't going to win the leadership of a party that wouldn't go on to win an election before brexit are called for a second referendum, totally going to happen...

    Oh, and FYI May got 65.8%

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Omg, two people who aren't going to win the leadership of a party that wouldn't go on to win an election before brexit are called for a second referendum, totally going to happen...

    Oh, and FYI May got 65.8%

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    a) They would not stand and bung in these extra £25 hoops extra if they did not think they had a chance to defeat momentum. So one assumes "aren't going to win" is a guess on your part. When Corbyn was at the height of his "boatyMcBoatFace" popularity he only just got 50% - now with so many young people voting "REMAIN" - I think it quite possibly (although not the most likely outcome) that he might lose.

    b) There has to be a vote in parliament before REMAIN EU laws are repealed - and house of lords backwards and forwards and amendments of various sorts - plus other business in parliament - I think its only , at best 50:50 it will get through parliament and lords this side of election. Not only that its going to take a full 12 months to tool up a department good enough to negotiate trade deals (I Mean you will need experts on such things as Sunglasses, food hygiene, clothing chemical standards, even 5p bags in supermarkets.. The list is going to be endless).

    c) Do the Brexiters have the will for the very very very long run or was it just a protest vote? Only time will tell. Just imagine if the Conservatives this time next year said "In order for ONE NATION" we will have a second referendum on the results of the negotiating - that would be more ONE NATION than forcing the nation into Brexit come what ever. I'm pretty sure a good percentage of Brexit voters would welcome a second vote on the results - they would not really want to leave if the outcome did not look as rosy as they first thought.
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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    Second Referendum more likely now because:

    a) Both Labour challengers to Corbyn say they support a second referendum, this time on the "deal" arranged by Boris.

    b) LibDems have already said they will be campaigning on REMAIN or return.

    c) The second referendum petition will be heard by MPs in parliament (5th September).

    d) The government only have a majority of 12 (will not take many by-elections or defections to clobber that).

    e) Boris is already on record of being in favour of second referendum.

    Thus if REMAIN organise massive demonstration in London on 5th of September (date of the parliament debate) if might , it might just swing it a bit..

    I mean anyone can tell the economy is potentially shot to pieces, its like the lull before the storm hits the fan.
    a) Slight Problem.. the membership are completely nuts and will keep Corbyn before deselecting moderates.

    b) Congratulations, you have 8% MP's committed to your fight.

    c) These petitions are not binding on the government. They will ignore any result from the debate.

    d) Defections only really occur when people think they'll lose so that won't happen. No Tory by-elections have occurred so far although it's worth noting that today's ICM put the Tories 10% ahead so any by-elections might not be so bad

    e) Boris has been bribed with the position of foreign sec. He'll be 3 line whipped to ratify the deal. .
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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    weird how 70% of people who say this to me all come from Brexit side.

    Democracy is an ONGOING process, there is no ONE AND FOR ALL. That is a dicatorship. You are confusing democracy (a continuing process) with dictatorship (a once and for all decision).

    BREXITERS - love dictatorship -

    REMAIN STRONG - GO FOR LONG GAME.
    The EU needs us and we need them
    Surely backing out of referendum where the majority voted to leave would be acting in the same way as a dictatorship, no?
    If it was 52/48 to remain would you be backing another referendum? Somehow I doubt it
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    (Original post by leinad2012)
    Surely backing out of referendum where the majority voted to leave would be acting in the same way as a dictatorship, no?
    If it was 52/48 to remain would you be backing another referendum? Somehow I doubt it
    No that is not true. People voted for the PRINCIPLE of leaving - I mean they would not want to leave at any price (eg if that price meant "death" for example).

    What is required is a PROPER vote
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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    No that is not true. People voted for the PRINCIPLE of leaving - I mean they would not want to leave at any price (eg if that price meant "death" for example).

    What is required is a PROPER vote
    So what's the difference began advisory vote before leaving the government declared it would follow, and a "proper" vote? What makes this vote improper other than it not going your way?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    So what's the difference began advisory vote before leaving the government declared it would follow, and a "proper" vote? What makes this vote improper other than it not going your way?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    As labour have suggested.
    Once we have a package that our Brexit techno bods have come up with We vote on that - do we like it or not... I mean it is our country - all of ours, not just the Brexit techno bods.

    What I don't understand is why are the ukip supporters so running scared of a second referendum that incorporates a say on the exit terms.

    Surely, like Gordon Brown in 2008 (signing lisbon without going to country with referendum or election) , all they will be doing is storing up trouble and the whole thing will be over turned by incoming "STEAM TRAIN" REMAIN party?

    (brim full of young Remainers wanting Free Movement and middle england worried about their house price collapse and falling pound) - The whole sorry sage is a house of cards - you might as well let it fall now rather than in about 3 years after loads of misery. Cut out the misery - let it fall now.
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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    As labour have suggested.
    Once we have a package that our Brexit techno bods have come up with We vote on that - do we like it or not... I mean it is our country - all of ours, not just the Brexit techno bods.

    What I don't understand is why are the ukip supporters so running scared of a second referendum that incorporates a say on the exit terms.

    Surely, like Gordon Brown in 2008 (signing lisbon without going to country with referendum or election) , all they will be doing is storing up trouble and the whole thing will be over turned by incoming "STEAM TRAIN" REMAIN party?

    (brim full of young Remainers wanting Free Movement and middle england worried about their house price collapse and falling pound) - The whole sorry sage is a house of cards - you might as well let it fall now rather than in about 3 years after loads of misery. Cut out the misery - let it fall now.
    Umm, I don't it's quite getting through to you so I'll say it again: A REFERENDUM POST NEGOTIATIONS WILL NOT KEEP US IN THE EU.

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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    No that is not true. People voted for the PRINCIPLE of leaving - I mean they would not want to leave at any price (eg if that price meant "death" for example).

    What is required is a PROPER vote
    The people voted to leave the EU. Not for the principle of leaving, they voted under the understanding that if they achieved a high enough percentage of votes, we would leave. People were told of the potential consequences, they took it (rightly or wrongly) as scaremongering.
    The people have voted and our government has to listen or risk disillusioning half the country even further.
    I'll ask again, if it was 52/48 remain, would you be asking for another referendum?
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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    Come on get real. Is KEN CLARKE going to vote to leave the EU?
    I think this is, no offence, a case of "What planet are you living on"

    Then what about the SNP - May is now on record on saying "No Clause 50 without SNP input" - I dont think the SNP are going to be triggering that in a hurry.

    Then there is a total lack of negotiators - BREXIT does not have a single one.

    The whole concept of leaving the EU is just a "barmy army" pipe dream - it makes no rational sense.

    First law of doctoring (or anything) is "Do no harm" - Doing Brexit is doing harm, it would be immoral to trigger clause 50.
    Or it harms your career? You're going to have to accept this at some point. If anything gets overturned -a)it makes a farce of the country and we can indefinite referendums, b)There will be insurrection

    What you want is a 2nd referendum fixed, which is of course democratic, whereas the first wasn't, and then to make sure there's no more after that. Lol
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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    Come on get real. Is KEN CLARKE going to vote to leave the EU?
    Given that he's announced he's retiring at the end of this parliament it doesn't really matter what he's thinking...
 
 
 
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