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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    You would still assume all Muslims believe in the same thing and follow ine interpretation. There are some that view most of the Quran as metaphorical. So if you find a verse which says to kill the disbelievers some Muslims will agree with it which are fine to hate whilst others take a more moderate perspective.

    Basically don't generalise.
    Honestly there's not much room for interpretation in that passage and many besides.

    Not arguing that many Muslims don't agree 100% with some of the brutality, but then I have to question why they follow the rest of the religion. Idk. I couldn't just 'overlook' something like that ygm?
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    (Original post by 1010marina)
    Honestly there's not much room for interpretation in that passage and many besides.

    Not arguing that many Muslims don't agree 100% with some of the brutality, but then I have to question why they follow the rest of the religion. Idk. I couldn't just 'overlook' something like that ygm?
    In thay passage I think there is. But anyways that's not the point. They don't necessarily overlook the controversial verses but interperate the verses in a more peaceful way which why many Muslims aren't on a non-Muslim killing spree.
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    In thay passage I think there is. But anyways that's not the point. They don't necessarily overlook the controversial verses but interperate the verses in a more peaceful way which why many Muslims aren't on a non-Muslim killing spree.
    Most Muslims who are not on a killing spree are not doing so because of morality, something that conflicts with the teachings of Islam in many regards, not wholesomely, but is something instilled through education, living in certain civilisations like Western civilisation, culture and their socio-economic standing.

    Just because they're not out there killing people it does not mean they do not sympathise with those that do, or think that they are heroes. People simply keep their true feelings and beliefs within until they are triggered.

    Look at Brexit for example. There were a minority of racists who would keep their feelings quiet on various topics but once Brexit occurred they thought they then had been given permission to go and act upon those desires and views in the public sphere.

    The situation in Turkey is very alarming because Erdogan called his Islamist AKP followers to the streets and they duly obliged, beating to death soldiers in their streets whilst chanting Allahu Akbar and dancing around like neanderthal barbarians from the stone age.
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    (Original post by welshiee)
    Most Muslims who are not on a killing spree are not doing so because of morality, something that conflicts with the teachings of Islam in many regards, not wholesomely, but is something instilled through education, living in certain civilisations like Western civilisation, culture and their socio-economic standing.

    Just because they're not out there killing people it does not mean they do not sympathise with those that do, or think that they are heroes. People simply keep their true feelings and beliefs within until they are triggered.

    Look at Brexit for example. There were a minority of racists who would keep their feelings quiet on various topics but once Brexit occurred they thought they then had been given permission to go and act upon those desires and views in the public sphere.

    The situation in Turkey is very alarming because Erdogan called his Islamist AKP followers to the streets and they duly obliged, beating to death soldiers in their streets whilst chanting Allahu Akbar and dancing around like neanderthal barbarians from the stone age.
    How do you know whether they all do or do not sympathise?
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    How do you know whether they all do or do not sympathise?
    All clearly do not but then modern Muslims in the civilised world as regarded as hypocrites by Allah anyway, as they do not follow his word literally.

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pa...ion-polls.aspx

    http://www.dailywire.com/news/4829/h...ichael-qazvini

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/659...error-tip-offs
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    (Original post by welshiee)
    And when an Islamist goes and rips the head off of an incident 'infidel' what do we call them then?t.
    Murder, Islamic extremism. Call it whatever you want.

    (Original post by welshiee)
    It's nonsense. When Islamists commit horrific crimes people like to come out with the religion of peace nonsense, disassociate the warped lunatics from the religion but when they're the victims its because of their religion. What utter rubbish. The reality is it is to do with their religion in both cases. They commit horrific crimes in the name of a backward 7th century neanderthal religious ideology and the people with the ability to think for themselves on a logical and rational basis do not fear it, they despise it because of how backward it is.

    Idiots in the modern world like to mix 'fear' with hatred of something. Yes, I hate an ideology that treats women as second class subhumans to fall in line. I hate an ideology that mutilates human beings before they're of age to give consent or because of their gender. I hate an ideology that thinks its okay to cut off the heads of innocents whilst shouting Allahu Akbar at people like primitive neanderthals from the year 700. I hate an ideology that thinks its only mission is expansionism and destruction of all non-believers in its path. I hate an ideology that has an utter contempt for modern civilisation and wants to undermine democracy and many of the things we embrace on a daily basis. There is nothing irrational about such a hatred. Its all logical and rational. Far more rational in fact than believing in some false God and that you'll go to a place called heaven if you listen to what he said. Yes, I had imaginary friends as well as a child. Guess what happened then? I ****ing grew up. Incredible stuff, isn't it?

    All ideologies, be they political or religious, are nothing more than tools and control mechanisms to manipulate the vulnerable or make the stupid fall in line. Anyone defending such nonsense is just as bad as them as you are giving a free pass to this outdated and backward rubbish. Of course, politicians don't want that do they? Because the religious are some of the dumbest and most gullible people on the planet who believe things without evidence or facts.

    Still waiting for Christians to enlighten me about how Noah's wonderful air conditioning system on the ark managed to keep all the polar bears nice and cold whilst all the camels nice and warm? What's that answer? God works in mysterious ways. Its time that the non-religious people started calling out the stupid religious zealots for what they are instead of pandering to their nonsensical fairytale crap that didn't even happen.

    I'll probably be banned for the above post now because freedom of speech is not exactly something the religious like unless you're agreeing with their fanatical ********. Go ahead, you'll only be proving my point.
    Well, I didn't read all of that, but as I said before, it is ok to dislike/hate an idealogy. I personally dislike Islam as well.

    I am specifically talking about incidents where Muslims are attacked on the basis of their religion which has nothing to do with what I said.
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    (Original post by 1010marina)
    It's very murky territory. Many passages in the Quran go completely against western culture and values... For example 4.34...It is very hard not to be scared of (/not like) people that support this passage, male or female.So surely it is arguable that anti muslim bigotry (not acceptable) is more often than not just a manifestation of dislike of the religion itself (acceptable). ?
    I see what you mean but you have to, however difficult, separate the ideology from the people practicing it. You might dislike fascists or nationalists but you wouldn't beat them up in the street or verbally abuse them.
    (Original post by BasharAssad)
    would you feel the same if I said there is no such thing as homophobia?
    Homosexuality like being Asian and black are not choices. You can't help them, you either fancy women or you don't, your either black or your not. Islam is like being liberal or fascist or Hindu or utilitarian or satanist. It's a way of life, an ideology that is chosen. I will hate and criticise fascism if I want but would not be called a facistophobic. This conflating ideology with race or sexuality is pretty damaging as it restricts people from criticising it openly.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Ok and the commonly used word to describe "anti-Muslim bigotry" or an irrational fear of Muslims and etc is Islamophobia rather than "Muslimophobia"
    But the use of that word is precisely what so many people have issue with because it is not an accurate descriptor. I therefore totally reject its so-called definition as anti-Muslim bigotry. Absurd political correctness around the criticism of Islam is bad enough as it is without making it worse by conflating hatred against people with criticism of an ideology.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Absurd political correctness around the criticism of Islam is bad enough as it is without making it worse by conflating hatred against people with criticism of an ideology.
    100% correct

    The term "Islamophobia" is thrown around as a (not always metaphorical only) hammer used to hit on the head those who criticise Islam and its impact on people's lives and society in general.

    Discrimination and hatred of Muslims as persons is a completely different issue.
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    In thay passage I think there is. But anyways that's not the point. They don't necessarily overlook the controversial verses but interperate the verses in a more peaceful way which why many Muslims aren't on a non-Muslim killing spree.
    Most Muslims aren't on a killing spree because most of them, thankully, are human beings, and at the end of the day use their innate biological function to be peaceful and kind.

    But this doesn't hide the fact that violent, bigoted, hateful text in the Quran exists. Because it does. And to some Muslims who take their faith very seriously indeed, this can outpour into their own hate, specifically towards gay people, atheists and women.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Well, that is obviously false .

    If someone goes and tears a hjab off a persons head or fire bombs a mosque then I think it is safe to say that is "Islamophobic".
    Such actions are far more likely to be inspired by racism or xenophobia.
    However, if they were genuinely motivated by a dislike or opposition to the ideology, it should be called Islamomisia, or Islamanthistemia.

    However, I am not going to bury my head in the sand and pretend that Muslims are not subject to unjust harassment due to a irrational fear of their religion.
    Yes, but you cannot use the same word for someone who firebombs a Mosque and someone who points out that the Quran contains some morally ambiguous or unacceptable passages.
    So, while the word obviously exists and has meaning, it is worthless in its current form and usage.

    We all know that most of the time it is used purely as a means of social intimidation.
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    (Original post by george_c00per)
    So what would you call the people who attacked and killed innocent Muslims after 9/11 happened? They were Islamophobic and you can not say otherwise.
    Did this happen?

    If you apply Islamophobia to the revenge murder of Muslims, you cannot also apply it to someone who uses reason and evidence to demonstrate that Islam contains elements that are unacceptable in 21st century secular democracies.

    It is meaningless in the contexts in which it is used. It has become synonymous with "racist" and is used mainly as a means of intellectual intimidation.

    It's time to start using words that mave a legitimate meaning.
    If someone is an anti-Muslim bigot, call them that.
    If someone is an critic of Islamic ideology, call them that.
    If someone is a racist xenophobe, call them that.
    Don't pretend that they are all the same thing.
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    It's definitely a word. A word with a narrow definition which is used far too liberally by those attempting to tar people they disagree with.
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    Why does it matter what we call it? I don't much care for your political correctness,.
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    Well there is such a thing if it's in the dictionary. Lol.
    Unicorn.
    Loolol.
    Spoiler:
    Show
    Actually, as you believe in a magic donkey with telescopic legs, maybe not such a good example!
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Ok and the commonly used word to describe "anti-Muslim bigotry" or an irrational fear of Muslims and etc is Islamophobia rather than "Muslimophobia"
    But as the same word is used to describe people who reasonably criticise Islamic ideology, it is rendered meaningless.
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    You would still assume all Muslims believe in the same thing and follow ine interpretation. There are some that view most of the Quran as metaphorical..
    So, it is okay for individuals to interpret the Quran as metaphor and allegory according to their own perspective, or is there a scholarly consensus as to where Allah meant what he said, and where he didn't?

    So if you find a verse which says to kill the disbelievers some Muslims will agree with it which are fine to hate whilst others take a more moderate perspective.
    And if it is okay to hate Muslims depending on how they interpret the Quran, who decides which Muslims it is okay to hate?

    Also, this raises the still unanswered question of why did Allah put so much stuff in the Quran that he didn't mean or only applied to a particular event in 7th century Arabia, if it is his final, perfect and unchangeable guide for all humanity?
    I must have asked that question dozens of times, and I'm still waiting for an answer (other than Allah Knows Best).
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    If Islamphobia is nonsense then homophobia should be nonsense too

    Some people are just weird
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    (Original post by Ordo)
    If Islamphobia is nonsense then homophobia should be nonsense too

    Some people are just weird
    You are comparing apples to spoons.

    Homosexuality is an innate part of a person, like race, height or eye colour. It is natural and affects no one but the individual (in a consensual adult context).
    To criticise someone for being homosexual is like criticising someone for being black.

    Islam is an ideology that people choose to subscribe to. It is artificail and can have profound effects on others. The content of that ideology can be analysed and criticised in the context of society, morality, reason, evidence, etc.
    Criticising Islam is like criticising fascism. And you wouldn't use "fascistophobe" as a pejorative, would you?
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    (Original post by Ordo)
    If Islamphobia is nonsense then homophobia should be nonsense too

    Some people are just weird
    Homophobia is an act of aggresion against someone's sexuality, something they can't help. It's akin to racism, and sexism - all biological.

    'Islamophobia' is a word used by people to silence those who criticise a religion, which is a mere set of beliefs, or an ideology.

    A phobia means an 'irrational' fear of something. But I would say it's impossible to have an irrational fear over an irrational collection of beliefs, which ultimately stem from one single book....
 
 
 

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