Could first cousin marriage be a major part of understanding Islamic extremism? Watch

Atlas Thugged
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#41
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#41
(Original post by generallee)
I hear you.

What worries me, frightens me even, is that when the products of this "*******isation" of the Islam and the West try and sort their lives out, (often in prison) they are such easy prey for Islamism from the recruiters they find there.

It is an incredibly glamorous, exciting ideology for exactly that sort of person. The chance to kill, achieve fame, and then immortality with the virgins. What is not to like from their point of view?

But it isn't just them. Look at the schoolgirls who absconded to become Jihadi brides. There is something about the ideology of Islamism that presses buttons that the rest of us can't relate to.

Terrifying, like I say.

The man who planned the Bataclan attacks, Salah Abdeslam, was seen as a hero in his ghetto, but had Islam been followed to the letter, he would have been whipped and probably sentenced to death for his drug use, history of petty crime (banditry) and womanising (zina). I don't personally think there's anything wrong with getting girls and I don't care if other people take drugs, but to me he's a chav playing dress-up because his life was that pathetic, rather than a warrior-scholar who deserves respect. It's the exact same with far-right supporters, they're so laughably inept compared with the Wehrmacht or the Waffen SS, even if they get the symbols tattooed to their bodies.


The crucial thing to take from this is that people need to be provided with the means to give themselves fulfillment without killing people or spreading hate and shoving them in ghettos and giving them a welfare check does the opposite of this. It's a half existence, they're poor enough to be angry at the system, but they get just enough provided to them they can afford to be fall into this nihilistic mental trap rather than striving to be responsible members of society.
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username1866585
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#42
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#42
(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
You're talking about the IRA, that's totally different, it's a sovereignty issue about occupation. It is not the same as a British or European raised person bombing or knifing their fellow countrymen because of a political and religious ideology. You know it isn't. Why can't we just start any discussion on this exceptional phenomenon without a lot of peoples trying to deny it's existence?
Doesn't matter, white people have killed more than Muslims in this country. It was for a political ideology though. If you want examples from across the globe, I can certainly point to the number of christian terrorists groups in USA and Africa, or the Sikh Khalistanis, or the Hindu groups like Shiv Sena and RSS. It's certainly not a unique phenomenon.
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username878267
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#43
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
Sikhs are pretty poor, so are Rastafarians I'm sure, and many many white people. They are not commiting suicide bombings and shootings and torture like this.
Sikhs are actually the second richest ethnic minority in Britain.
Have a look at page 19 on here: http://www.birmingham.ac.uk/Document...aper-BPCIV.pdf

And i'm not just talking about suicide bombings and torture, I am talking about extremism as a whole. Many of the white population who join far right groups are the poor ones.

Poverty is not the only factor but it certainly pushes people towards extremism, whether that extremism is far right nationalism or religious fanaticism.

Nothing to do with Islam at all then? You seem to think it racist to analyze how this behaviour could stem from an ideology, and a religion. When religion and ideology are totally different things to race. If we don't tackle this honestly and look for the usual answers, we are in big trouble. Because it is not a 'usual' political force, it is a relentless, determined and militant one.
I've not said it's 'nothing to do with Islam' nor have I said it is racist to analyze the links between ideology and extremism so please don't put words in my mouth.
What I have said is that one of the biggest driving forces which pushes young muslims in this country to join Isis is poverty.
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username878267
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#44
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#44
(Original post by generallee)
Poverty is a factor, but I think you massively over emphasise it.

When push come to shove, Islamism is just a religious cult. It is rather like the Moonies or the followers of David Koresh, or Jim Jones (just on a much much bigger scale).

What prompted people to join those cults? A spiritual emptiness, a desire to find meaning in life, a self disgust.

That is the basic psychological imperative behind Islamism. (And arguably all religions). It just feeds off a major world religion, like a parasite, and therefore has the opportunity to infect over a billion potential recruits.
I'm not denying its a cult. What I am trying to get to is the reason why people are attracted to join this cult.

Poverty and poor living standards is and always has been one of the major factors which pushes people towards extremism as they look for something to give them a purpose. That's the case with far right extremism, just as it is with Islamic extremism.
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SaucissonSecCy
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#45
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#45
(Original post by Bornblue)
.
What I have said is that one of the biggest driving forces which pushes young muslims in this country to join Isis is poverty.
Well, then we simply do not agree. Islam and Islamism is an exceptional case that needs exceptional resources and attention. You simply bring out conventional wisdom about poverty. Poverty and inequality are social problems which need adddressing. This is something entirely different, with different solutions, which you sound way too sympathetic to. People have personal responsibility. It is not happening, however much anyone spins it, with other groups. You can't throw money and stuff and look for reasons to absolve responsibility. That is dangerous.
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username878267
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#46
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(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
Well, then we simply do not agree. Islam and Islamism is an exceptional case that needs exceptional resources and attention. You simply bring out conventional wisdom about poverty. Poverty and inequality are social problems which need adddressing. This is something entirely different, with different solutions, which you sound way too sympathetic to. People have personal responsibility. It is not happening, however much anyone spins it, with other groups. You can't throw money and stuff and look for reasons to absolve responsibility. That is dangerous.
We need to address all issues. One of the biggest push factors towards extremism is and always has been poverty. I don't think most people are inherently bad but they have crappy lives with no opportunities and they look for a purpose which very often comes in the form of extremism.

I thought you hated our neoliberal system? I do too and one of the reasons is that it creates such desperate poverty and inequality which leads to crime and extremism.

It is not the only factor but it's an important factor. If we want to stop young boys joining Isis we need to show them that they have better opportunities to be succesful here.
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username1866585
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#47
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#47
(Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
Well, then we simply do not agree. Islam and Islamism is an exceptional case that needs exceptional resources and attention. You simply bring out conventional wisdom about poverty. Poverty and inequality are social problems which need adddressing. This is something entirely different, with different solutions, which you sound way too sympathetic to. People have personal responsibility. It is not happening, however much anyone spins it, with other groups. You can't throw money and stuff and look for reasons to absolve responsibility. That is dangerous.
What's your proposal? Should we ban first-cousin marriage in Europe? Is that your big solution?
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admonit
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#48
Thanks
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admonit
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#49
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Thanks

1. Almost half of the community are first generation immigrants.
2. They have high birth rate.
3. Their women don't actively participate in the labor market.
4. 26% Muslims with "no qualifications"
So, who is to blame?
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ChaoticButterfly
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#50
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Most Islamist terrorists have done very none conservative Muslims things such as use prostitutes, drink alcohol, take drugs etc. They are not in anyway deeply routed in Muslim conservatism at all.

People are so quick to come up with theories on what is happening without actually looking at what is happening :facepalm:

The "Muslims" who shoot up party goers are pretty **** Muslims and do not live the life of the orthodox Muslim OP is imaganing.
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username878267
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#51
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(Original post by admonit)
Thanks

1. Almost half of the community are first generation immigrants.
2. They have high birth rate.
3. Their women don't actively participate in the labor market.
4. 26% Muslims with "no qualifications"
So, who is to blame?
It's not about looking to pin the blame on individuals which is often unhelpful. It's about looking to assess why so many young Muslim boys feel the need to turn to extremism.

I don't personally think they are inherently bad people, often they have crappy lives, live in relative poverty with few opportunities and are attracted by the 'excitement' of being part of a cult with a sense of purpose.

It's the same reason why so many who join far right groups come from very poor backgrounds.

One of the main things we should be looking to do is increase living standards in all communities to try and quell the lure of extremism and in my opinion our current economic climate is making things worse, not better.
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admonit
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#52
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(Original post by Bornblue)
It's not about looking to pin the blame on individuals which is often unhelpful. It's about looking to assess why so many young Muslim boys feel the need to turn to extremism.

I don't personally think they are inherently bad people, often they have crappy lives, live in relative poverty with few opportunities and are attracted by the 'excitement' of being part of a cult with a sense of purpose.

It's the same reason why so many who join far right groups come from very poor backgrounds.

One of the main things we should be looking to do is increase living standards in all communities to try and quell the lure of extremism and in my opinion our current economic climate is making things worse, not better.
So your solution includes giving even more social housing and even more money?
You consider them as poor children, but they are not. They came to your country with their mentality, with their culture, with their religion and with their traditions - all that which make their countries of origin poor and unstable. This is the reason of their poverty.
"Ruin, therefore, is ... something that starts in people's heads"
Mikhail Bulgakov "Heart of a Dog"
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F.Nietzsche
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#53
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Perhaps centuries of inbreeding depression is to blame, I personally don't know.
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username878267
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#54
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(Original post by admonit)
So your solution includes giving even more social housing and even more money?
No. There is no simple 'solution' or easy answers but increased investment into infrastructure, housing in communities which have been left behind by our neoliberal economics to raise living standards would be a very positive step forward.

Islamic extremism does not in and of itself derive from poverty, however poverty and poor living standards drives people of all backgrounds towards extremism, whether to the far right, the far left or religious fanaticism.

There's a reason why crime rates in poor communities is higher and the same is true of extremism.
Islamic extremism, like far right extremism can certainly be challenged by increasing living standards, thereby reducing the attraction of the cults.
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QE2
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(Original post by Bornblue)
Except the UK and USA played a huge role in creating Al-Qaeda and ISIS through our disastrous Middle Eastern policy.
Really? Not so sure about that.
Al Qaeda grew out of the mujahideen fighting the Russian innvasion.
ISIS arose as a result of endemic sectarianism in the ME and the power vacuum created by the Syrian civil war. US and UK foreign policy obviously played a role, but not a "huge" one. Other factors were more important.

Then we have an economic system which leads to huge communities simply being left behind.
And yet, only one of those communities chooses to express anger at that economic system by regularly killing people. And also claiming ideological justification.

Poverty is one of the biggest draws to all forms of extremism. The poorer you are, the less opportunities you seem to have and the more you want a sense of purpose. Extremism often provides that sense of purpose.
You keep repeating this like some kind of mantra, yet you also keep failing to explain why only one particular group manifest such disadvantage by conducting regular terrorist attacks. And claiming iseological justification, rather than mentioning their actual grievances.

Of course there are other factors, but we should deal with ALL factors and that includes an economic system which leads to huge levels of inequality and poverty which is one of the main driving forces of extremism of all kind, especially when you consider how poor the Muslim community in this country is.
Poverty is clearly not the main driving force in Islamic extremism. The main driving force is a particular interpretation of Islam. And until people have the courage to accept this, there will be no solution.
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generallee
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#56
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(Original post by Bornblue)
I'm not denying its a cult. What I am trying to get to is the reason why people are attracted to join this cult.

Poverty and poor living standards is and always has been one of the major factors which pushes people towards extremism as they look for something to give them a purpose. That's the case with far right extremism, just as it is with Islamic extremism.
The number of dangerous extremists (far right and Islamist) is very small, a few thousand at most.. As a percentage of those in poverty (by your figures) it doesn't really explain the phenomenon very well.

Why do hundreds of thousands in poverty (by your definition) resist the lure of the cults, and only a relative handful succumb?

The reasons are intensely personal and far more complex.
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username878267
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(Original post by generallee)
The number of dangerous extremists (far right and Islamist) is very small, a few thousand at most.. As a percentage of those in poverty (by your figures) it doesn't really explain the phenomenon very well.

Why do hundreds of thousands in poverty (by your definition) resist the lure of the cults, and only a relative handful succumb?

The reasons are intensely personal and far more complex.
I'm not saying every poor person is lured to extremism and you know I'm not.
I'm saying poverty can be and is a factor in pushing people towards extremism.*


It's simply absurd to claim that there is no link between poverty and people being lured to extremist groups.

*The Muslim community in this country is poorer than any other ethnic or religious community.*

When you have people growing up in poverty, with no opportunities and a crappy life, the lure of these cults becomes far greater. That goes for the far right and the young Muslims who join Isis.*

We have to look at all factors for extremism and there seems to be an agenda to prevent is discussing an economic system creating inequality, poverty and desparation.*
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generallee
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(Original post by Bornblue)
I'm not saying every poor person is lured to extremism and you know I'm not.
I'm saying poverty can be and is a factor in pushing people towards extremism.*


It's simply absurd to claim that there is no link between poverty and people being lured to extremist groups.

*The Muslim community in this country is poorer than any other ethnic or religious community.*

When you have people growing up in poverty, with no opportunities and a crappy life, the lure of these cults becomes far greater. That goes for the far right and the young Muslims who join Isis.*

We have to look at all factors for extremism and there seems to be an agenda to prevent is discussing an economic system creating inequality, poverty and desparation.*
I didn't say that poverty wasn't a contributory factor, I think it is for some Islamists (but clearly not all).

Where we differ is our estimation of its importance.

This is about so much more than poverty. (And for many Islamists it isn't about poverty at all). It is about alienation, about identity, a rejection of materialism, a desire for meaning and a life after death, about feeling lost between two cultures, about personal inadequacy, about a desire to be somebody, to exercise power and not be powerless, all kinds of stuff.

And QE2 is right, at its root is something within Islamic thought and culture, itself. As an ex Muslim herself she understands this in a way we can't appreciate.

For her to be wrong you have to explain why this is not affecting Jews or Buddhists or Hindus, or Sikhs in the same way. They aren't all rich, and in some parts of the world some of them are very poor indeed. Yet we don't talk about the Hindu Spring, or the Buddhist "Resurgence."

This is a phenomenon affecting this generation of Muslims.

As she says we have to confront this inconvenient truth as a society. This inability to call this for what it is makes everything ten times worse...
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QE2
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(Original post by blah3210)
There are multiple routes into terrorism, some of which might involve poverty and some of which might not. Generally lone-wolves also tend to have higher rates of mental health issues than the general populace. Moreover American Somalis, 82% of whom live below the poverty line are the source of largest groups travelling to fight with jihadist groups.
And yet, there are no other groups who suffer poverty and deprivation going to join any of the Jihadist groups (the name of such groups is a clue as to the source of the ideological justification), othe that Muslim. There are no hispanic Christians, no Indian Sikhs, no African American atheists or Thai Buddhists.

Only Muslims. Some poor, some not. Some suffering economic adversity, some not. Some uneducated, some not. But all Muslims.

Do you have any evidence in the form of research studies to support this conclusion?
Are you seriously claiming that Islamic ideology is not a major factor in Islamic extremism? You need research studies that demonstrate such a connection? Wow!

Do you also need studies before you believe that alcohol is a major factor in alcoholism, or overeating a major factor in obesity.

As I said, rational people are getting tired of this kind of wilful ignorance, deflection and head burying.
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QE2
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But that says that Black Africans and Black Caribbeans suffer even greater poverty than many Muslims, so according to your argument, we should be experiencing violent terrorism from (mostly Christian) Black Africans and Caribbeans.

Yet we are not.
You data seems to refute your argument.
Sorry.
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