Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by SH0405)
    I think most people arguing for the legality of burning a Quran agree that it will offend some people, myself included. I believe the main argument is, essentially, 'So what? Deal with it'. Freedom of speech and the right to offend are two attributes that I value extremely highly.

    It can sometimes feel to me like religion gets a protective bubble when it comes to offence, which I find rather frustrating.
    Well I don't think the right to offend is enshrined in any form of human rights :rolleyes:

    What exactly are you gaining by being offensive and disrespectful to others?

    Put another way, what's the difference between your attitude of "I can offend - so what?" and the ISIS members who shout "death to all infidels in the West"?
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Zerforax)
    Well I don't think the right to offend is enshrined in any form of human rights :rolleyes:
    Agreed. Which is why I'm so grateful that it is a commonly respected right in modern society.

    (Original post by Zerforax)
    What exactly are you gaining by being offensive and disrespectful to others?
    Probably nothing, but that's part of my argument. The right to offend covers offence which both does and does not produce gain for the individual.

    (Original post by Zerforax)
    Put another way, what's the difference between your attitude of "I can offend - so what?" and the ISIS members who shout "death to all infidels in the West"?
    It all comes down to what seems to be a recurring theme; intent. Any person simply saying those words seems fine to me.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Zerforax)
    Well I don't think the right to offend is enshrined in any form of human rights :rolleyes:

    What exactly are you gaining by being offensive and disrespectful to others?

    Put another way, what's the difference between your attitude of "I can offend - so what?" and the ISIS members who shout "death to all infidels in the West"?
    There is a difference between offending a person's beliefs and voicing the view that a person should not even be allowed to live.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Zerforax)
    Well I don't think the right to offend is enshrined in any form of human rights :rolleyes:

    What exactly are you gaining by being offensive and disrespectful to others?

    Put another way, what's the difference between your attitude of "I can offend - so what?" and the ISIS members who shout "death to all infidels in the West"?
    lol offence is taken, not given. I could say "the Earth is round" and offend some flat earther, I could say "I'm gay" and offend a homophobe. Whether something is offensive or not is not grounds for allowing or disallowing it because it is rather difficult to qualify "offensive" given that practically everything has the capacity to offend.

    And the difference is that the latter is a direct incitement to violence, obviously.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    Burn away, dude. Although a lot of slightly to massively ignorant Muslims will get all flustered about it and get all emotional. As a Muslim, if you decided to burn the Quran right in front of me, I'll give you a fire hydrant rather than try and hack you to death. I don't know if I should laugh at the ridiculousness that is the Islamic world nowadays? How did they fall so badly from the Golden Age? Now they're just barbaric. :/
    Offline

    9
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Onde)
    It seems rather petty to complain about the burning of some book when such evil views are commonly held.
    Most religions have views in which everyone is judged on their actions at the end of their life; Muslims, Jews and Christians have hell, Sikhs, Hindus and Buddhists have reincarnation. If you don't believe in it as you have said, it won't affect you because at the end of the day there isn't a definitive view on what happens after you die.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MissChameleon)
    Most religions have views in which everyone is judged on their actions at the end of their life; Muslims, Jews and Christians have hell, Sikhs, Hindus and Buddhists have reincarnation. If you don't believe in it as you have said, it won't affect you because at the end of the day there isn't a definitive view on what happens after you die.
    People often say this to me.

    What you say simple isn't true: the world has been severely damaged by individuals who believe (often with absolute dogmatic certainty) in judgement after death: it is often such individuals who place little or no value on this mortal life, and will play high stakes with the lives of others.

    If someone believes that I deserve to be tortured for eternity simply because I do not share their ideology, how can that not have a negative impact on the world? These are not people you would want to pass the time of day with at the post office. They are not people who are likely to have reasonable ideas about how to improve the world in a harmonious fashion, for the benefit of everybody.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Onde)
    People often say this to me.

    What you say simple isn't true: the world has been severely damaged by individuals who believe (often with absolute dogmatic certainty) in judgement after death: it is often such individuals who place little or no value on this mortal life, and will play high stakes with the lives of others.

    If someone believes that I deserve to be tortured for eternity simply because I do not share their ideology, how can that not have a negative impact on the world? These are not people you would want to pass the time of day with at the post office. They are not people who are likely to have reasonable ideas about how to improve the world in a harmonious fashion, for the benefit of everybody.
    The world has also benefited by individuals who believe in judgement after death. Since Islam is the highlight, look at the Islamic Golden Age. I'm sure I could find many other religious devout individuals who have done great things from various religions.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Rohan187)
    The world has also benefited by individuals who believe in judgement after death. Since Islam is the highlight, look at the Islamic Golden Age. I'm sure I could find many other religious devout individuals who have done great things from various religions.
    I think it would be wrong for religions to take credit for the achievements of individuals in the Middle Ages. I believe that if the greatest minds had spent more time on philosophy and science and art rather than religion, they would have achieved a lot more good.
    Offline

    9
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Onde)
    People often say this to me.

    What you say simple isn't true: the world has been severely damaged by individuals who believe (often with absolute dogmatic certainty) in judgement after death: it is often such individuals who place little or no value on this mortal life, and will play high stakes with the lives of others.

    If someone believes that I deserve to be tortured for eternity simply because I do not share their ideology, how can that not have a negative impact on the world? These are not people you would want to pass the time of day with at the post office. They are not people who are likely to have reasonable ideas about how to improve the world in a harmonious fashion, for the benefit of everybody.
    I understand where you are coming from but many of those individuals of those religions don't believe you will be 'tortured' excluding the deluded crazies.
    Spoiler:
    Show
    IS
    The Abrahamic religions, for instance, teach that only God knows whether you shall be condemned or not and this decided by how good you are. In the Qur'an it actually says non believers will and can be sent to heaven and that some Muslims will be sent to hell. Only radical Muslims who most likely haven't even read their own Holy book would jump to conclusions and this perception is forwarded by the media.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MissChameleon)
    I understand where you are coming from but many of those individuals of those religions don't believe you will be 'tortured' excluding the deluded crazies.
    Spoiler:
    Show
    IS
    The Abrahamic religions, for instance, teach that only God knows whether you shall be condemned or not and this decided by how good you are. In the Qur'an it actually says non believers will and can be sent to heaven and that some Muslims will be sent to hell. Only radical Muslims who most likely haven't even read their own Holy book would jump to conclusions and this perception is forwarded by the media.
    All three of the Abrahamic religions are clear that atheists such as me will certainly go to hell, regardless of how good we are.

    In the qur'an, it says that heretics (Muhammad supposedly believed there would be 72 false sects of Islam, and only one true one), pagans, polytheists, and those it deems social miscreants will definitely go to hell and no mercy is to be shown towards them in this life. I believe that Muhammad fundamentally misunderstood Christianity, as it is unlikely he would have considered Christians People of the Book if he knew that Christians consider Jesus to be god. In regards Christians and Jews, it says they are not to be trusted, and that it is acceptable to lie to them to achieve your ends: that is a rather condemnatory attitude.
    • #1
    #1

    Seeing how ****ed up our countries have delt with this kind of stuff this is what I'd expect.

    A non muslim burns a Qoran, jail.
    A muslim burn a bible, nothing.
    Offline

    9
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Onde)
    All three of the Abrahamic religions are clear that atheists such as me will certainly go to hell, regardless of how good we are.

    In the qur'an, it says that heretics (Muhammad supposedly believed there would be 72 false sects of Islam, and only one true one), pagans, polytheists, and those it deems social miscreants will definitely go to hell and no mercy is to be shown towards them in this life. I believe that Muhammad fundamentally misunderstood Christianity, as it is unlikely he would have considered Christians People of the Book if he knew that Christians consider Jesus to be god. In regards Christians and Jews, it says they are not to be trusted, and that it is acceptable to lie to them to achieve your ends: that is a rather condemnatory attitude.
    Let me claify what the Qur'an means by non believer. In the context of the Qur'an it is someone who knows a lot about Islam but refuses to embrace the religion. If you are a good pious person who has minimal knowledge about the religion, who doesn't really understand it, you can still go to heaven and of course it all comes down to God's judgement. God knows best, He knows your fears, you hopes and what you are all about and so Allah is the only one who can judge you. In the end, we don't know what will happen to us but we hope and pray.

    So believe what you want, ultimately, I believe that everything you do is your choice and wish you all the best in this life and the next.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Onde)
    I think it would be wrong for religions to take credit for the achievements of individuals in the Middle Ages. I believe that if the greatest minds had spent more time on philosophy and science and art rather than religion, they would have achieved a lot more good.
    Well clearly these individuals have achieved quite a lot in both science and mathematics whilst being religiously devout and you could argue that being religiously devout played a big factor in their life choices and decisions.

    (Original post by Onde)
    All three of the Abrahamic religions are clear that atheists such as me will certainly go to hell, regardless of how good we are.

    In the qur'an, it says that heretics (Muhammad supposedly believed there would be 72 false sects of Islam, and only one true one), pagans, polytheists, and those it deems social miscreants will definitely go to hell and no mercy is to be shown towards them in this life. I believe that Muhammad fundamentally misunderstood Christianity, as it is unlikely he would have considered Christians People of the Book if he knew that Christians consider Jesus to be god. In regards Christians and Jews, it says they are not to be trusted, and that it is acceptable to lie to them to achieve your ends: that is a rather condemnatory attitude.
    Clearly some have been categorized in the quran and other religions in terms of those who will go to heaven or hell but it isn't that plain and simple. God judges you on intent indefinitely. An atheist who embodies everything that a good person should be according to said religions, could find his way to heaven. It isn't black and white. Non believers go to hell and believers go to heaven. The terms "Non believer" and "Believer" mean a lot more than an atheist and a Muslim.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MissChameleon)
    Let me claify what the Qur'an means by non believer. In the context of the Qur'an it is someone who knows a lot about Islam but refuses to embrace the religion. If you are a good pious person who has minimal knowledge about the religion, who doesn't really understand it, you can still go to heaven and of course it all comes down to God's judgement. God knows best, He knows your fears, you hopes and what you are all about and so Allah is the only one who can judge you. In the end, we don't know what will happen to us but we hope and pray.

    So believe what you want, ultimately, I believe that everything you do is your choice and wish you all the best in this life and the next.
    "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc)."

    Again, it is clear that according to Islamic ideology, there are many groups of people whose lives would automatically be forfeit if it had its way.

    It doesn't matter how good I am if I am an atheist: there is no hope for me according to Islam.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Rohan187)
    Well clearly these individuals have achieved quite a lot in both science and mathematics whilst being religiously devout and you could argue that being religiously devout played a big factor in their life choices and decisions.
    Francis Bacon was of the view that the rise of Christianity meant that all the best minds went to studying theology rather than to the sciences: I think it is hard to argue otherwise. This would have greatly limited progress.

    (Original post by Rohan187)
    Clearly some have been categorized in the quran and other religions in terms of those who will go to heaven or hell but it isn't that plain and simple. God judges you on intent indefinitely. An atheist who embodies everything that a good person should be according to said religions, could find his way to heaven. It isn't black and white. Non believers go to hell and believers go to heaven. The terms "Non believer" and "Believer" mean a lot more than an atheist and a Muslim.
    There is no evidence of god, so I choose to judge religions purely on its ideology and the individuals who follow it. In the case of Islam, it is clear it harshly punishes the innocent, and rewards warmongers such as Muhammad.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by upperechelon)
    Under the current climate, it wouldn't be wise to burn a Quran for your own safety
    On that note, "Je suis Charlie" would have been a lot-more effective as a display of solidarity if we had all posted selfies with a burning Daesh flag. Well, a burning Quran would upset them more, but that comes with some obvious inherent issues. **** religion.
    • #2
    #2

    As a Muslim, why would you want to burn someone's religious book? For the sake of Freedom of Speech? Lol! Go right ahead, there are millions of people around the world who know the Qur'an by heart, and we can make a million more for each one you burn. For the sake of Freedom of Speech, I would never, EVER, do such a thing towards he Bible, Torah, any constitution/flag or any athiest book lol.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Onde)
    "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc)."

    Again, it is clear that according to Islamic ideology, there are many groups of people whose lives would automatically be forfeit if it had its way.

    It doesn't matter how good I am if I am an atheist: there is no hope for me according to Islam.

    So, why did the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) accept non-Muslims to live under Muslim rule? Why didn't he just 'slay' them? Hmm, seems to me you don't understand the context of the verse, let alone the history of Islam. Here's a hadith for you: The Prophet said, "Who ever kills a Dhimi (innocent), he will never smell enter Paradise, let alone smell it!" Sahih Bukhari.

    Good day to you
    Online

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by cashcash871)
    Or is it freedom of speech? Surely it could be interpreted as inciting religious hatred...

    (Sorry guys for the click bait- I wanted to call this "what is the boundary between freedom of expression and religious hatred" but that wouldn't get any views...)
    Why burn any scripture? Only fools would to incite hatred.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Would you like to hibernate through the winter months?
    Useful resources
    Bizarre things students have spent their loans onThings you should budget for at uni

    Sponsored features:

    Making money from your own website

    Need some cash?

    How to make money running your own website.

    Bianca Miller, runner-up on The Apprentice

    Handle your digital footprint

    What would an employer find out about you on Google? Find out how to take control.

    Groups associated with this forum:

    View associated groups
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.