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    (Original post by QE2)
    Your article bore no relation to the truth of the event thet you were reposting. Exactly what you accused The Sun of doing. You claim that it was just a bit of a larf. I'm sure that many a Sun journalist has claimed the same thing.
    You're being dishonest here and you know you are. I don't see at all what grounds you have for claiming that the Sun were doing it for a joke, if you have such evidence please tell me.

    I deliberately chose a figure like 800% to make it clear I was using hyperbole, to take the piss out of the Sun. That was fairly obvious.

    Not to blow my own trumpet, but I do know that 800% of Muslims is an illogical statement, hence I chose it as a bit of a joke to poke fun at the Sun's ludicracy.


    Except that wasn't the term used. It was "expressed sympathy with", which means to be in agreement with to some extent.

    But the survey did not use "sympathy for", it used "sympathy with". Two different concepts.
    You're scraping the barrel here and looking for a distinction that does not exist.
    Sympathy 'for' and sympathy 'with' are the same bloody thing. I detest the far right, but I can understand why young, poor white males with few opportunities are attracted by the lure of the far right. In that sense I have sympathy for their situation, not that I agree with them, but I can understand why they do it.

    Asking someone if they 'express sympathy' is inherently vague and open to interpretation. It is entirely unclear if it means agreement, or just an understanding of why they did it, I personally would take the latter to be the meaning.
    In what way was it flawed. Survation are a well established market research company.
    The poll asked if Muslims had sympathy for fighters in Syria, not drawing a distinction between ISIS and fighting against ISIS. 14% expressed 'some sympathy', 5% expresed a lot of sympathy.

    We have already established that 'sympathy' is an inherently vague and unhelpful term but even so, to portray that as 20% of Muslims 'have sympathy for Jihadis' is incredibly and purposely misleading.

    Have a read of this by a person who actually conducted the poll and expresses dismay at both how Survation conducted it and how the Sun deliberately misinterpreted it. http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/i-con...ihadi-sympathy

    "
    Every single person I spoke to for more than five minutes condemned the terrorist attacks carried out in the name of Islam. Some wanted to do the survey primarily in order to show that - as a Muslim - they were disgusted and appalled by what had happened in Paris. These thoughts and feelings were lost in a small set of multiple-choice questions. The idea that that one, badly worded poll can speak for complex and emotional topics such as identity and religion would be funny if it wasn't so damaging."

    Then there was the specific question about sympathy for fighters in Syria. (Note: there was no mention of the word 'jihadi' in the script at any point.) One question asked which of the statements the interviewee most agreed with: a) I have a lot of sympathy for young Muslims who leave the UK to join fighters in Syria, b) I have some sympathy for young Muslims who leave the UK to join fighters in Syria, or c) I have no sympathy for young Muslims who leave the UK to join fighters in Syria.


    The overwhelming majority of those polled responded to this question with answer c), but some did say they had some sympathy (no one I spoke to said that they had a lot of sympathy). The problem with this question is the word 'sympathy'. What does 'sympathy' mean? Does sympathy mean pity? Or does sympathy mean empathy?
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    These Muslims seem pretty liberal to me

    Men in Iran are wearing hijabs in solidarity with their wives who are forced to cover their hair

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...-a7160146.html
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    These Muslims seem pretty liberal to me

    Men in Iran are wearing hijabs in solidarity with their wives who are forced to cover their hair

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...-a7160146.html
    A tiny, tiny minority of people, in a country which famously has an intellectual, liberal tradition of people who often aren't practicing Muslims.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    A tiny, tiny minority of people, in a country which famously has an intellectual, liberal tradition of people who often aren't practicing Muslims.
    Maybe instead of moaning on the interwebs maybe help foster such rebellion within Muslim societies huh?

    I don't know why people like yourself have such disdain for people who want liberalism to infect Muslim societies? Why would you not want that? Why would you not want to help foster that?

    Also what is your solution to the "Muslim problem"?
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    "They ain't real Muslims, bruv..."

    Regressives seem to base their perceptions of Islam and Muslims on their westernised, middle class, 'Muslim Light' neighbours and all the 'nicer' parts of Islamic culture they learn about in school. Maybe they should try living in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan for a while - or even certain parts of Europe. I think their perceptions would change somewhat...
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Maybe instead of moaning on the interwebs maybe help foster such rebellion within Muslim societies huh?

    I don't know why people like yourself have such disdain for people who want liberalism to infect Muslim societies? Why would you not want that? Why would you not want to help foster that?

    Also what is your solution to the "Muslim problem"?
    Weird response. The people who want liberalism in Muslim societies are absolutely the people I support. The Iranians who support making their country a liberal society are at the pinnacle of the fight against fundamentalist Islam. Honestly, usually it's the regressives who like their Muslims to be fundamentalist morons, hence why they do hatchet jobs on people like Maajid Nawaz, so this is a particularly bizarre misfire from you.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Weird response. The people who want liberalism in Muslim societies are absolutely the people I support. The Iranians who support making their country a liberal society are at the pinnacle of the fight against fundamentalist Islam. Honestly, usually it's the regressives who like their Muslims to be fundamentalist morons, hence why they do hatchet jobs on people like Maajid Nawaz, so this is a particularly bizarre misfire from you.
    I think the misunderstanding arises when people like mistake not wanting to see persecution of a hole group of people as being the same as supporting everything that group of people do. If you just say regressive leftist enough you don't have to think about anything or try and work out the best way to foster liberalism in Muslim society.

    I appose banning mosques not because I support a patriarchal religion/culture, but because I appose the state being able to dictate such things and I think a narrative of liberals (including Muslims) vs Islamist is better for spreading liberalism than making it Muslims vs the west which just plays into the hands of Islamist propaganda.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    I think the misunderstanding arises when people like mistake like you not wanting to see persecution of a hole group of people as being the same as supporting everything that group of people do. If you just say regressive enough you don't have to think about anything or try and work out the best way to foster liberalism in Muslim society.
    No, I just think criticising hundreds of millions of Muslims who support Sharia and think gays should be punished is very important, while regressives routinely deflect this necessary criticism with ridiculous, mindless, baseless platitudes like "religion of peace" and "99% of Muslims are peaceful", or they would rather deflect criticism of the horrific treatment of women in many Muslim communities and societies by uttering some ridiculous whataboutery about "lad culture" or women choosing to take their clothes off for newspapers. Every time regressives do that stuff, every time they say that hijabs are actually "feminist", every time they write hatchet jobs about Maajid Nawaz or Ayaan Hirsi Ali, they counter the progress of all the secularists, liberals, and reformists in countries like Iran or Pakistan.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    No, I just think criticising hundreds of millions of Muslims who support Sharia and think gays should be punished is very important, while regressives routinely deflect this necessary criticism with ridiculous, mindless, baseless platitudes like "religion of peace" and "99% of Muslims are peaceful", or they would rather deflect criticism of the horrific treatment of women in many Muslim communities and societies by uttering some ridiculous whataboutery about "lad culture" or women choosing to take their clothes off for newspapers. Every time regressives do that stuff, every time they say that hijabs are actually "feminist", every time they write hatchet jobs about Maajid Nawaz or Ayaan Hirsi Ali, they counter the progress of all the secularists, liberals, and reformists in countries like Iran or Pakistan.
    One of the things I've never understood is why Religion has remained in the 'holy bastion' of things that mustn't be criticised.

    Nazism is banned because it promotes hatred against other races and is a dangerous ideology.

    We look down on football hooliganism 'culture' and dismiss it as horrid.

    Yet whenever the time comes to judge someones religious ideology, or the culture of their country/people, suddenly we must reserve our judgement, otherwise we are racist bigots with intolerant attitudes.

    The problem is that we hold people to the same standards we would want to be held to, when the reality is these same people do not have anywhere close to the same standards. The rape/molesting culture of middle-easterners is a perfect example of that.

    If you disagree with the core fundamental principles of a religious ideology, then you should be free to voice your concerns and opinions without being labelled a bigot.
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    (Original post by FCB)
    One of the things I've never understood is why Religion has remained in the 'holy bastion' of things that mustn't be criticised.

    Nazism is banned because it promotes hatred against other races and is a dangerous ideology.

    We look down on football hooliganism 'culture' and dismiss it as horrid.

    Yet whenever the time comes to judge someones religious ideology, or the culture of their country/people, suddenly we must reserve our judgement, otherwise we are racist bigots with intolerant attitudes.

    The problem is that we hold people to the same standards we would want to be held to, when the reality is these same people do not have anywhere close to the same standards. The rape/molesting culture of middle-easterners is a perfect example of that.

    If you disagree with the core fundamental principles of a religious ideology, then you should be free to voice your concerns and opinions without being labelled a bigot.
    There are two types of bigot: one who dislikes other ideas to their own simply because they are different, and one who has reasons for disliking an idea which is different to his own. I really see no harm in the latter.
 
 
 
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