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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Because he's taken advantage of our political and economic system to make fortunes.
    What part of him is anti-establishment? Our political and economic system are irreversibly intertwined and the idea that you can separate them is bs.
    Being a politican does not make you part of the establishment unless you think Sanders and Corbyn are establishment. Likewise not being a politician does not make you anti-establishment.
    Well, if we take your perspective to it's logical conclusion we can say that everyone can be considered to be a part of the establishment as long as they've ever bought anything with their nation's currency. But there are still degree's to which people can be said to be more establishment than others, and while Trump is very much part of the corporate establishment, and the corporate establishment is obviously linked to politics, as everything in society is linked in some way, he is far more of an outsider to the political establishment than every candidate who had an inkling of a chance, except Sanders. He also cares far less what the political establishment thinks of him than most other politicians.
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    Trump is basically a rich, slightly more sane Vermin Supreme:
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Well, if we take your perspective to it's logical conclusion we can say that everyone can be considered to be a part of the establishment as long as they've ever bought anything with their nation's currency.
    Not at all. Not everything is black and white. Making just enough to put food on the table is not the same as making billions, using illegal immigrants in the process.

    By 'benefits' it is clear I mean make fortunes, not just made a penny.

    But there are still degree's to which people can be said to be more establishment than others, and while Trump is very much part of the corporate establishment, and the corporate establishment is obviously linked to politics, as everything in society is linked in some way, he is far more of an outsider to the political establishment than every candidate who had an inkling of a chance, except Sanders. He also cares far less what the political establishment thinks of him than most other politicians.
    Except the people who cannot put food on the table or afford heatlhcare are suffering because of our economic, not political establishment.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Not at all. Not everything is black and white. Making just enough to put food on the table is not the same as making billions, using illegal immigrants in the process.

    By 'benefits' it is clear I mean make fortunes, not just made a penny.



    Except the people who cannot put food on the table or afford heatlhcare are suffering because of our economic, not political establishment.
    But Trump is viewed as being anti-political establishment, not anti-corporate establishment.
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    Trump for potus
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    (Original post by TelAviv)
    You missed out the "and they can come back into our country, but they have to do it legally" part!
    Funny that when he was employing illegal immigrants in his business for incredibly low wages he didn't want to send them home...

    But when you point out to his fans that he's a massive establishment hypocrite they start to cry...
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Sure, the anti-Trump brigade totally took his words about Mexican cartel members coming over the border out of context and made it look like he was talking about all Mexican immigrants. They've twisted a lot of stuff he's said, they've misconstrued stuff. His comments that Russia would find a lot of great stuff if they hacked Hillary's email were clearly sarcastic, and said with large degree of tongue-in-cheek. But I think his comments about the Muslim mother and father of the American soldier who died were pretty terrible. It was a really cold hearted response, and it was very stupid and undiplomatic. If you want to know what I'm talking about, see here:
    What am i missing?

    They chose to be a pawn in Hilary's political game (The same Hilary who sent their son to die) - They are happy to endorse the war mongerer who has thousands of peoples blood on her hands including their sons and errantly attack trump and his character.

    I find it hilarious and frustrating that Hilary and the left held up this muslims story and sacrifice to counter trump as tho they are some sort of paradigm for all muslims, the same people who constantly shout u cant blame religion for 1 individuals actions.

    I am pretty sure the number of muslims in UK and USA armies is absoloutely miniscule
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I agree he appears to be talking about issues, but he's not actually offering solutions or addressing the issues.

    He just goes for 'kick them out, build a wall, send them home' etc.
    They're soundbites rather than solutions.

    None of these areas are no-go for other politicians. What debate has he opened? If it's a debate about banning all Muslims, is that a debate we really want opened?
    Define "We". Some people will and some people wont.. thats why you have a debate

    Agree with the first part of your post though, i can see Trump being all talk very very little walk
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    (Original post by oShahpo)
    People like Trump because he offers facile solutions to infinitely complex problems, solutions which people can very easily understand without much thought or scrutiny. The reason those facile solutions are taken seriously is because of all the millions he's made.
    If this is how American/Western people think then God help us all, it doesn't matter who becomes president because the Western culture is in epochal decline.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    If this is how American/Western people think then God help us all, it doesn't matter who becomes president because the Western culture is in epochal decline.
    Its not how western people think its how humans think. If there is a big problem that is repeatedly denied, unaddressed and the politicans views are contrary to a majority of peoples reality... they will go for the person who proclaims to have the will or to address the issue

    Very simple stuff. This is the cost of your head in the sand, apologist denialism which spurs the likes of the politicans on

    If only a politicans had offered some form of action strong enough to appease peoples worries, then solutions like ban all muslims wouldnt be so appealing to say many
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    Trump in a nutshell: We've got a lot of problems, and you know a lot of problems, and we're gonna make things great again. We're gonna make things work again. Cos you know we have a lot of problems, and I mean a lot of problems. And we don't win anymore. So, we have a lot of problems, and you know we're gonna make things great again.
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Its not how western people think its how humans think. If there is a big problem that is repeatedly denied, unaddressed and the politicans views are contrary to a majority of peoples reality... they will go for the person who proclaims to have the will or to address the issue

    Very simple stuff. This is the cost of your head in the sand, apologist denialism which spurs the likes of the politicans on

    If only a politicans had offered some form of action strong enough to appease peoples worries, then solutions like ban all muslims wouldnt be so appealing to say many
    Well actually he said ban muslims until we can figure out what's going on. That's being intellectually honest about not being an expert on the subject, which other politicians also aren't but always purport to be...which is evidently dangerous.
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    (Original post by Chakede)
    im sure this has been said before , but the worlds great superpower and the best they can come up with as a president is either a loon or a crook. how did we come to this situation?
    What's the population of the United States? 200 million plus? How many potentially thousands of brilliant people must be out there who would do an incredible job serving their country but will never ever get a look in because they would never have any financial backing or clout? That can't be democracy, surely? Yes, our top politicians are usually Oxbridge types, but our present Prime Minister is the daughter of a vicar. It may be predominantly Oxford or Cambridge graduates who get the top jobs in the civil service or government, but their background might be as poor as a church mouse.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    The fact he has benefitted from the political and "economic" system (who doesn't benefit from the latter btw?) does not mean he isn't anti-establishment. Pablo Escobar was a billionaire who benefitted from, and was deeply involved in, both of those things, and he still was definitely anti-establishment. The political establishment, even the Republicans, have tried everything to stop Trump and shed a bad light on him. The news is far more full of stories that shed a negative light on Trump than on Hillary or anyone else. The fact Hillary has broken the law, and sanctioned selling weapons to Saudi Arabia to bomb Yemen, or giving weapons to Syrian rebels who turned out to be ISIS, has received far less attention on mainstream news sites such as the BBC than any of Trump's gaffs or controversies.
    *I'm unconvinced and have got to agree with Blue I'm afraid. You don't acquire a lot of the most prized real estate in New York without being cosy with the right faces. He's tight with ex-mayor of NYC (an extremely powerful and influential position) Rudy Giuliani for example. That's just one well-documented example off the top of my head but it would shock me if he didn't also have positive working relationships with most other NYC mayors over the last 3 decades of both parties. Yes, Clinton is contemptible but Trump opposing her doesn't make him any more anti-establishment when you consider his business ventures**

    Edit: I just remembered an interview with him last year where he talked about how he's very pally with loads of the biggest Wall Street players also. That's pretty establishment if you ask me....*
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    I like the fact he supports allowing states to decide whether marijuana should be legal in them, and believes in "studying" legalisation. I like his opposition to TPP and TTIP. I think it's actually a really good idea to make it more difficult for people to pass over the border from Mexico, as it would really make life difficult for the cartels and would actually greatly benefit all the Mexicans who live under their menace in the towns near the border. I don't think Mexico should be forced to pay for it. I like the fact he is fairly indifferent about gay marriage, and now seems to have accepted it. I like the fact he support Planned Parenthood. I like the fact his response to the whole transgender toilet debacle was something along the lines of "people should be able to use whichever toilet they want". I also like the fact he is very concerned about Islamic terrorism and Islam. I love the fact he has said he would refuse to take money from the Saudis.

    On the other hand, his views on guns are ridiculous, and he does say some stupid, brash, belligerent things, and I wonder if his utter lack of diplomacy could be dangerous.
    Why do you like the fact he's concerned about something so insignificant in the US? If I lived in the US I'd be more afraid of being killed by a police officer than a terrorist


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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Its not how western people think its how humans think. If there is a big problem that is repeatedly denied, unaddressed and the politicans views are contrary to a majority of peoples reality... they will go for the person who proclaims to have the will or to address the issue

    Very simple stuff. This is the cost of your head in the sand, apologist denialism which spurs the likes of the politicans on

    If only a politicans had offered some form of action strong enough to appease peoples worries, then solutions like ban all muslims wouldnt be so appealing to say many
    That humans think like that is a fatal flaw and impediment to the long-term success of our species, or at least any given empire.

    The point of civilisation and all the laws and institutions we have to create to support it is for us to deny our immediate impulses because we collectively get more out of civilisation and following its rules.

    When politicians start pandering to people's neurotic instincts to win votes, that is, the laziest and most cynical way of participating in democracy, that is the last post on the bugle for the civilisation concerned. It will lumber on fatally wounded until such time as a more determined, rational rival usurps it, or at least until it pitches itself into a massive war, whereafter people may finally come to their senses.
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    (Original post by markova21)
    What's the population of the United States? 200 million plus? How many potentially thousands of brilliant people must be out there who would do an incredible job serving their country but will never ever get a look in because they would never have any financial backing or clout? That can't be democracy, surely? Yes, our top politicians are usually Oxbridge types, but our present Prime Minister is the daughter of a vicar. It may be predominantly Oxford or Cambridge graduates who get the top jobs in the civil service or government, but their background might be as poor as a church mouse.
    There have been multiple prime ministers and presidents in recent history who came from nowt. Over here, we can point to John Major. Over there we have Nixon (got accepted into Harvard but couldn't afford to attend), Carter, Ford, Bill Clinton (especially so) and the current president!**
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    What am i missing?

    They chose to be a pawn in Hilary's political game (The same Hilary who sent their son to die) - They are happy to endorse the war mongerer who has thousands of peoples blood on her hands including their sons and errantly attack trump and his character.

    I find it hilarious and frustrating that Hilary and the left held up this muslims story and sacrifice to counter trump as tho they are some sort of paradigm for all muslims, the same people who constantly shout u cant blame religion for 1 individuals actions.

    I am pretty sure the number of muslims in UK and USA armies is absoloutely miniscule
    True... I do agree with all that. It was a manipulative, emotive thing to do and they shouldn't have been involved. It's also slightly ironic because Hillary is a war hawk and many more soldiers like their son will die under her rule, and also many more Muslims on the enemy side. On the other hand, it was pretty untactful of Trump, and it kinda craps on every other Muslim American who puts their arse out on the line for their country. The mother didn't speak up because she was too choked up with tears, so it was a bit distasteful to make such a tactless and disingenous assumption.
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    (Original post by Underscore__)
    Why do you like the fact he's concerned about something so insignificant in the US? If I lived in the US I'd be more afraid of being killed by a police officer than a terrorist


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    So would I, and also I absolutely think that the police need some serious work to make them less like a giant, violent gang. However, neither Clinton or Trump will do anything about that.

    I do think Islam poses a threat, although not necessarily with terrorism. Mainly I worry that elements of its ideology will seep into our culture. I hate any kind of puritanism, and many Muslims are very puritanical.
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Its not how western people think its how humans think. If there is a big problem that is repeatedly denied, unaddressed and the politicans views are contrary to a majority of peoples reality... they will go for the person who proclaims to have the will or to address the issue

    Very simple stuff. This is the cost of your head in the sand, apologist denialism which spurs the likes of the politicans on

    If only a politicans had offered some form of action strong enough to appease peoples worries, then solutions like ban all muslims wouldnt be so appealing to say many
    In that case then the blame is to be attributed with the more enlightened class of humans who lead the plebs for failing to take into account these problems and do something about it before some fascist comes along providing easy solutions to problems the leadership have failed to solve.
 
 
 
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