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    (Original post by skeptical_john)
    Tell that to Ukraine who gave up their nukes as part Budapest treaty.
    We aren't Ukraine. And Russia has suffered economically since their incursions.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    We aren't Ukraine. And Russia has suffered economically since their incursions.
    But your thinking is a long the same lines as Ukraine which proved disastrous for them.


    Economic sanctions have not done anything, Putins opinion polls are just as good if anything he much stronger support because of the Ukraine and Crimea conflict.

    TBH I'm not pro or anti Trident, but lets be honest about the purpose of a deterrent.

    Who predicted the coup in Turkey? No one. How can anyone say with certainty Russia or China would not threaten UK over the next 60 years. And with Trump declaring NATO void the argument for Trident is probably stronger than ever.
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    I think the best thing to happen to Jeremy Corbyn is all of his disloyal shadow cabinet leaving. Now he can fill it with supportive, loyal members.

    If that still doesn't work, well, that's that.
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    (Original post by skeptical_john)
    Who predicted the coup in Turkey? No one. How can anyone say with certainty Russia or China would not threaten UK over the next 60 years. And with Trump declaring NATO void the argument for Trident is probably stronger than ever.
    Yes. I hear all that and kind of agree. But with the majority of the world not possessing nuclear weapons and the UKs military being one of the strongest without nukes, if you are going to pick of a country, there are plenty of others to choose.

    But the question surely has to be how the UK would respond to conventional attack? Would we really retaliate with nukes? I think not. Nukes stop nukes and no one will dare use them. Why would they? Pressing the button is game over for the world.
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    (Original post by Aliccam)
    The media are covering Corbyn a lot even though he is in oppositon. Just not with anything positive. Corbyn and his supporters do go to TV interviews and make press releases. The TV coverage is not particularly balanced, and the press only seem to be interested in sensation or distortion. I must have seen a hundred stories including photos of Angela Eagle's window, there was even another one in the Telegraph featuring it today. The general media portrayal of Corbyn is that he is a grumpy sexist anti-semite loser and all his 'followers' are cultist Trots, blindly swallowing everything he says, and trying to make the party as unelectable as possible, by calling everyone Blairites and behaving violently at Labour meetings.
    The trouble is, Corbyn has encouraged the media to loath him by every means at his disposal. He constantly refuses to be interviewed and when he does allow it, is rude, arrogant and dismissive. In his early days as leader, he basically wouldn't do any interviews and now he does them grudgingly and in a sour way. He also peddles weak conspiradroid theories and acts like the media companies are his enemy, which whilst possibly true, does not exactly encourage positive coverage.

    He basically has a media savvy rating of about 1/10 or less.

    Add that to the clear evidence that he's just not a very nice man and you have the current situation where basically nobody in the media, not even the left-leaning media, has a good word to say about him.

    Unfortunately this matters, as no matter how effective street activists are (and many are not very effective), they can only have a marginal impact on public opinion. Corbyn is stuck in a bygone era mentally, he thinks if he gains control of the Labour Party (tick) he will then have a huge Labour-leaning agitprop machine coming out to operate on his behalf and he can adopt a Clement Attlee-style "nothing to say" approach. The only trouble is, the huge Labour machine disappeared in about 1975.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Yes. I hear all that and kind of agree. But with the majority of the world not possessing nuclear weapons and the UKs military being one of the strongest without nukes, if you are going to pick of a country, there are plenty of others to choose.

    But the question surely has to be how the UK would respond to conventional attack? Would we really retaliate with nukes? I think not. Nukes stop nukes and no one will dare use them. Why would they? Pressing the button is game over for the world.
    Yes you could look at it like being a house on the street. You just want to have better security than your neighbor so the burglar goes there. Though I'm not sure we want to proceed in a race to the bottom of national security.

    On your second point May has said she would use the nukes. Whether or not she is bluffing does not matter. That's enough for any world be attacker.
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    (Original post by HEAVYDaz)
    There is no positive aspects about him. Do you really think he is a proper leader, he has no control over his Parliamentary Party and seems to have very inconsistent views, this means apart from opposing austerity and wars he is pretty much unpredictable because he has no clear vision for the labour party and has pretty much turned them in to a protest group

    Leaders are assertive, Corbyn is not he is very awkward in some of the responses and questions he delivers, leaders give there team members a clear vision of aims and objectives they expect from the team and will assist there teams in meeting these aims and objectives, he seems like a very autocratic leader to me to be honest, threatening MP's who oppose him with his scummy supporters , he is also not personally accountable/responsible enough
    Corbyn had two big problems when he was elected as leader. He was already unpopular with the PLP, and he came straight from the back benches with no cabinet experience, and hadn't even expected to win. His unconventional style has lead to criticism from the PLP and the media. He is not autocractic as demonstrated by his initial inclusive cabinet, but on the other hand he was not going conform to the way things had been before, which caused addition discontent. It is this resistance to doing things the way they have always been done, that is what is attracting his support. There are a lot of people who are fed up with the continued failure of anything real being changed, and the growing inequality and pressure on wages and services. He may not be polished, and may not present things as black and white, when they are really grey, but there is the idea at least that he cannot be bought, and will at least try to improve things for ordinary people, even if he may be a bit shambolic in how he achieves it. The existing MPs, may look slick, but they don't even have the intention of trying to improve things, they just say what they think we want to hear, and then do what they want.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The trouble is, Corbyn has encouraged the media to loath him by every means at his disposal. He constantly refuses to be interviewed and when he does allow it, is rude, arrogant and dismissive. In his early days as leader, he basically wouldn't do any interviews and now he does them grudgingly and in a sour way. He also peddles weak conspiradroid theories and acts like the media companies are his enemy, which whilst possibly true, does not exactly encourage positive coverage.

    He basically has a media savvy rating of about 1/10 or less.

    Add that to the clear evidence that he's just not a very nice man and you have the current situation where basically nobody in the media, not even the left-leaning media, has a good word to say about him.

    Unfortunately this matters, as no matter how effective street activists are (and many are not very effective), they can only have a marginal impact on public opinion. Corbyn is stuck in a bygone era mentally, he thinks if he gains control of the Labour Party (tick) he will then have a huge Labour-leaning agitprop machine coming out to operate on his behalf and he can adopt a Clement Attlee-style "nothing to say" approach. The only trouble is, the huge Labour machine disappeared in about 1975.
    I do agree with some of what you say. Corbyn does have trouble hiding his (justified) disappointment with journalist, particularly those who force their views in each question, and have already decided the answers. He regards them as sensation and gossip peddlars.
    At the moment with things as they are he doesn't need the press, the upcoming leadership election is going to be decided by people at rallies, and he is trying to expand his base there. If there is a general election, he will have to deal with the media, but they will need him just as much, so he may have a bit more control over the process. He is never going to win them over, as even more personable Labour leaders have always suffered bias.
    The machine is not as big, but it is growing, and there have been very few inspiring people in government in the recent past. What have we got to lose. Very little has changed or will without something really different happening. People were surprised by the EU referendum result and turnout.
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    Wow. The High Court just ruled that the 130,000 new members who joined after the cut-off date previously set by the NEC to be January can now vote.
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...te-court-rules

    So it's Corbyn by another landslide. :eek4:

    Lots of Labour MPs now going to be figuring out how to start a new party.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Wow. The High Court just ruled that the 130,000 new members who joined after the cut-off date previously set by the NEC to be January can now vote.
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...te-court-rules

    So it's Corbyn by another landslide. :eek4:

    Lots of Labour MPs now going to be figuring out how to start a new party.
    and to think this sign up and vote thing was brought in with the intention of killing the left of the party. LOL
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    Just a word on Corbyn: when you face the well-trained, well-cultured types of the conservative party you really have to make sure you have enough intelligence to beat them back with their own stick. Otherwise they will make you look a fool which is precisely what they have orchestrated so far with Corbyn.

    Yet he seemingly has no desire to improve his image due to his own ridiculous civil code whereby anyone against him is viewed with contempt. To quote Frankie Boyle, he perpetually looks like someone who's literally spent the previous night sleeping in his car - and that's surely what the public think of him, or those that matter!
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    and to think this sign up and vote thing was brought in with the intention of killing the left of the party. LOL
    A nice interpretation is that Milipede had one of his blank moments.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    A nice interpretation is that Milipede had one of his blank moments.
    Noooooooooo. They all loved it. Wrote many articles in newspapers about how great it was killing the unions. Peter Mandlesson said something like turning labour membership into being a large but passive entity.

    :rofl:
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Noooooooooo. They all loved it. Wrote many articles in newspapers about how great it was killing the unions. Peter Mandlesson said something like turning labour membership into being a large but passive entity.

    :rofl:
    Lol, Mandelson seems to be one of those people it's best to keep busy somewhere and not have interfere too much.
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    In contrast to probably most people on here, I usually vote Conservative. I won't go into the reasons why on this post but I'll just state that my political position is the center-right. While I would never vote Labour, I also get worried when they don't provide a credible opposition. I won't deny that the Tories have some wacky policies, many of which are far to right wing for my liking. Now when Labour provide a realistic threat, the Tories tend to hold back on there most extreme ideas, sticking to just right of the center, because they fear Labour will take their votes. However, Corbyn will never win an election (fact) and so the Conservatives have pretty much free reign. People may well grumble but they won't care because right now they're untouchable. So when ideas like the reintroduction of grammar schools, further privatisation of the NHS and increases in tuition fees pass through government, they are what I will blame Corbyn for.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The trouble is, Corbyn has encouraged the media to loath him by every means at his disposal. He constantly refuses to be interviewed and when he does allow it, is rude, arrogant and dismissive. In his early days as leader, he basically wouldn't do any interviews and now he does them grudgingly and in a sour way. He also peddles weak conspiradroid theories and acts like the media companies are his enemy, which whilst possibly true, does not exactly encourage positive coverage.

    He basically has a media savvy rating of about 1/10 or less.

    Add that to the clear evidence that he's just not a very nice man and you have the current situation where basically nobody in the media, not even the left-leaning media, has a good word to say about him.

    Unfortunately this matters, as no matter how effective street activists are (and many are not very effective), they can only have a marginal impact on public opinion. Corbyn is stuck in a bygone era mentally, he thinks if he gains control of the Labour Party (tick) he will then have a huge Labour-leaning agitprop machine coming out to operate on his behalf and he can adopt a Clement Attlee-style "nothing to say" approach. The only trouble is, the huge Labour machine disappeared in about 1975.
    Corbyn does have a problem with journalists. Disappointment. He knows that they are not really interested in what he has to say, and are very likely to distort pretty much anything he does says. He acknowledges that true journalism is a dying art, consigned to the fringes. The mainstream media, when it comes to politics, are only interested in sensation not substance, and regularly knowingly distort facts to suit the story. They have traditionally been very supportive of the establishment and against Labour. Most of the media are owned by big business interests, and the rest tend to follow them, rather than taking any different position.
    At the moment Corbyn does not need the media, as the leadership election, his immediate concern, is being decided by members, who actually go to rallies or look at facebook internet etc. Once he wins this, he may need them more, but they will also need him, and will have to cover him a bit more seriously.
    There is not much he can do with the media, he is in the position that the more he appears the worse his chances. The only way he could improve things would be to suck up, change policies and capitulate. If he did that, he might win with the media, but would immediately lose his current support.
    Despite what the media are saying, the Corbyn support is not about personality, it is about change.
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    (Original post by Aliccam)
    Corbyn does have a problem with journalists. Disappointment. He knows that they are not really interested in what he has to say, and are very likely to distort pretty much anything he does says. He acknowledges that true journalism is a dying art, consigned to the fringes. The mainstream media, when it comes to politics, are only interested in sensation not substance, and regularly knowingly distort facts to suit the story. They have traditionally been very supportive of the establishment and against Labour. Most of the media are owned by big business interests, and the rest tend to follow them, rather than taking any different position.
    At the moment Corbyn does not need the media, as the leadership election, his immediate concern, is being decided by members, who actually go to rallies or look at facebook internet etc. Once he wins this, he may need them more, but they will also need him, and will have to cover him a bit more seriously.
    There is not much he can do with the media, he is in the position that the more he appears the worse his chances. The only way he could improve things would be to suck up, change policies and capitulate. If he did that, he might win with the media, but would immediately lose his current support.
    Despite what the media are saying, the Corbyn support is not about personality, it is about change.
    Up to a point, but the media are a fact of politics now and unless you deal effectively with their numbnut behaviour, they will run and run the attacks. Scorning them is unlikely to help.

    I think the problem here is the disconnect between the honest idealism of many supporters (which I have no problem with) and the realities of trying to turn that into an elected government. Trust me, without at least some significant parts of the media being supportive, that is unlikely to occur.

    I think Corbyn and his people know this and simply don't care - they are not interested in winning the election and being in a position to actually implement their programme, that is clear - they are pursuing an idealistic socialist view and in some cases, I have to say, delivering that with all the ham fisted clunking and bizarre cynical manoeuvres and harsh mistreatment of opponents that characterised the part of the Left Corbyn belongs to in the 70s and 80s. You should perhaps realise that Corbyn is not really fighting a battle now for the views of people like yourselves about the current economic situation (even though he may appear to be) but is fixated on winning the battle he and his colleagues lost in the mid-80s.

    I just hope you realise that he has no plan to win the election and he won't.
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    (Original post by Aliccam)
    Corbyn does have a problem with journalists.
    Unless of course it's the propaganda network of the Iranian regime - Press TV - in which case he'll happily accept 20 grand off them to appear on their network while the regime was hanging gay people and the channel itself was getting very censured by Ofcom for broadcasting confessions from dissidents obtained under torture.

    Or if it's the Morning Star, who praised the IRA Brighton Bombing and cracking jokes about the Conservative MP's wife ending up permanently disabled from the attack while he was a columnist for them.

    A kinder, gentler politics *
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Up to a point, but the media are a fact of politics now and unless you deal effectively with their numbnut behaviour, they will run and run the attacks. Scorning them is unlikely to help.

    I think the problem here is the disconnect between the honest idealism of many supporters (which I have no problem with) and the realities of trying to turn that into an elected government. Trust me, without at least some significant parts of the media being supportive, that is unlikely to occur.
    For Corbyn and his support using conventional tactics with the media was always doomed, as a significant portion would be against him whatever he says or does. By limiting his engagement he at least has some control. There are already some signs that the media and possibly their viewers/readers are getting bored of the one sided and often petty rhetoric.

    I think Corbyn and his people know this and simply don't care - they are not interested in winning the election and being in a position to actually implement their programme, that is clear - they are pursuing an idealistic socialist view and in some cases, I have to say, delivering that with all the ham fisted clunking and bizarre cynical manoeuvres and harsh mistreatment of opponents that characterised the part of the Left Corbyn belongs to in the 70s and 80s. You should perhaps realise that Corbyn is not really fighting a battle now for the views of people like yourselves about the current economic situation (even though he may appear to be) but is fixated on winning the battle he and his colleagues lost in the mid-80s.

    I just hope you realise that he has no plan to win the election and he won't.
    This is the myth being heavily peddled in the press. I have read lots of conversations between supporters on social media. They are very interested in winning the election. They want to win with a platform which represents their true views, rather than with appeasement. Most of the maneuvering is in response to the difficulties being imposed by the other side of the Labour Party, rather than anything which preexisted. Whilst Corbyn due to his history, does refer to the past quite a lot, and he did not like the direction it took during the Blair years.he knows the ground has changed and that new approaches need to be taken now.
    As for winning the election when it eventually comes, I think the approach will begin as it is already, with rallies and social media, then during the actual campaign with feet on the ground. As this starts to build the media will start to look increasingly stupid, and the more independent ones will have to start reporting. There will be televised debates and interviews with audiences full of vocal supporters. The public will get to hear the message.
 
 
 
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