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    (Original post by Igor)
    yes, since probably all the examiners are some random people picked up from the streets with no experience in ToK, right? :rolleyes:


    you've written it about one zillion times, you can stop bragging about it now, will ya?

    of course it is a matter of principle, but sometimes you should judge when something is worth doing and when not. in fact, I was in a similar position after my IB exams, in one of my strongest subject (Physics that is), I got a 6 (predicted 7) in spite of having two of the papers marked 7 and one of them 6 plus an excellent IA. I could have made an enquiry and probably I could have improved my grade to either 44 or even 45.
    but why? I realised that it was my own fault to get those two points off because I was too relaxed about the two subjects I got a 6 in as they were my best subjects and I thought "ah well, I had sevens throughout the two years, I must get a 7 on the final exams too, so I might as well study a bit less for them". and after the exams, the realisation that I was capable of achieving more if only I hadn't been so easy-going with the two subjects, was enough. even though an enquiry could have brought me an extra point or so, I didn't care much about it... only people with poor self-esteem need confirmation from others, social psychology teaches us. I had my confirmation of my own abilities from inside, from myself, and that's what counts.

    so basically, what I'm saying is that if you feel like doing an enquiry, do it. if it will make you feel better than OK. I wouldn't do it myself and I see no point in doing it, but hey we're all different and that's what makes this world interesting. but others can't be blamed for one's faults. and also, be careful, you might be very disappointed if your enquiry is unsuccessful. nevertheless, I sincerely hope this will not happen and that you will improve your grade.
    There's no need to dicuss this anymore: I already made an enquiry first thing after I got results and my teachers really recommended this and they said the results are "inconceivable". At that time my place was not yet secured, so it could have made a difference (I haven't got the response for the enquiry yet, though ) The point was then to do what I can to get the ridiculously marked papers reasonably remarked in case I had failed in STEP. What if they weren't sure whether to take me or other guys with 44 and a failed STEP! After I got the place, I can no longer withdraw the enquiry and don't want to because I want an IB diploma which contains no shameful D (I'm considered the strongest ToK student in my class, so it doesn't feel very awarding that an A in EE is not enough to get 3 bonus points) Especially since people who wrote it in 30 minutes and couldn't care less got B's (the marks awarded were generally very good, and no-one else has ever got a D in the school). So I am also making the enquiry because I know I should succeed.

    If you realised it was your own fault to fail Physics, it's your business. My two IB point losses (ToK and English) are most definitely NOT my fault. (Chemistry grade 6 was my fault though, since I was too confident there. )

    I was not bragging about my place: Lechu asked about it with his question "and you?" in his message-- and I made it clear that I had already mentioned it. That you must point this "bragging" out just shows that you are very very clearly jealous. No bragging whatsoever was intended, although it is something surely worthy of mentioning another time, aye?

    ToK examiners are human beings and many mistakes could have happened in Jordan before the mark was transferred to the lists. If the system was perfect and examiners were robots, no enquiry service would be needed! My case is living proof that the IB system has faults. I also believe the faults should be brought up, unlike you.

    I will not be very disappointed in case they do the same mistake again: too bad. I however believe that this outcome is less likely, so do my teachers.

    Having A PLACE AT TRINITY COLLEGE, CAMBRIDGE is a good consolation, isn't it?

    [I apologise to others than Igor for the brutal nature of the message. The IB PATRONISER just causes one to write the weirdest of things...]
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    Igor - you say that you have realised that although you might get a 7 on appeal you don't deserve it (likewise by implication Darkside would not deserve more had his appeal come through). This is exactly the sort of muddled logic that probably made you lose a point in physics - surely if your paper IS mismarked and a second marked catches this mistake it is the marker's fault and not yours for being 'lax'. I worked very hard at English HL, got given 7s in Papers 1, 3, and 4, yet got a 6 overall because my marker for Paper 2 (normally my strongest paper) gave me a 3! On appeal this was moved up to a low 7 in Paper 2, thus giving me the 7 I deserved overall. Appeals are not about whining and making yourself look good if they come through - I appealed two subjects which I was sure were mismarked, and both came through. I severely resent anyone implying that I did not deserve these grades. Similarly, were Darkside to appeal and have his grade changed, this entire thread would vindicate him.
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    (Original post by neutrino)
    Dear Darkside,

    I can only make a superficial guess as to what went wrong......

    Personally, I would have given you 81/100 marks for your essay, scoring high for the depth of your analysis and the wide range of subject areas you brought in.

    From my intuition, I could feel that you were trying to make your essay sound as academic as possible by structuring your arguments in a deep and profound manner.

    While there's essentially nothing wrong with that, I guess the real fault lies in the fact that it was overdone. What turned out to be a good attempt in fact backfired. Generally, I think the fault lies with the essay being too DENSE.

    For example, in the abstract and first paragraph, I was immediately awe-struck by the use of the phrases "Ways of Knowing" and "Areas of Knowledge". Hmm....what exactly do you mean by these two phrases (i.e. definition)? Also, would it have been possible to replace these bombastic phrases with easier words?

    The problem could have been that the examiner was too tired after marking 50+ scripts and didn't have the patience to slowly work through your arguments. Actually, it took me quite a while to sift through your arguments as well.

    Generally, from my own limited knowledge and superficial understanding on writing good essays, I guess the key to doing well is to have a CLEAR PICTURE of the point you're trying to make in your head, and then phrase it in as EASY and as SIMPLE a manner as possible.

    It takes skill and a bit of practice to express even the most profound ideas in the simplest possible manner so that the widest range of audiences can understand.

    Cheers. I think you deserve at least a B.
    Thank you. It's good that someone has sense to think about things and to read the essay before responding. Also I agree with your point about making it easy and simple, but my teacher felt that it was among the clearest and simplest in my class (still not very simple and clear, I admit) -- and no-one else got a D.

    As for what went wrong, the marking is what went wrong!
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    (Original post by ASNaC)
    Igor - you say that you have realised that although you might get a 7 on appeal you don't deserve it (likewise by implication Darkside would not deserve more had his appeal come through). This is exactly the sort of muddled logic that probably made you lose a point in physics - surely if your paper IS mismarked and a second marked catches this mistake it is the marker's fault and not yours for being 'lax'. I worked very hard at English HL, got given 7s in Papers 1, 3, and 4, yet got a 6 overall because my marker for Paper 2 (normally my strongest paper) gave me a 3! On appeal this was moved up to a low 7 in Paper 2, thus giving me the 7 I deserved overall. Appeals are not about whining and making yourself look good if they come through - I appealed two subjects which I was sure were mismarked, and both came through. I severely resent anyone implying that I did not deserve these grades. Similarly, were Darkside to appeal and have his grade changed, this entire thread would vindicate him.
    Praise the Lord!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I could not have said this better myself -- especially about "muddled logic" which is tried to emphasize with modern psychology -- Igor, your message was an incredible mess of nonsense -- it was indirectly assulting : you can shove your sincere hopes of me getting a better grade up your *&/% and the same concerning "different people in the world" -- save me from your sincerety!!!
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    (Original post by vavavoom)
    How did everyone find out their specific scores?! I only know that I got a '7' or '6'.
    Go and get a printout from your IB coordinator.
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    (Original post by Igor)
    and also, IB criteria are various and cover several aspects of the essay. so saying that "you must have scored so low because you didn't use enough ToK terminology" and things like that is foolish
    There were no major faults in neutrino's reasoning.

    It is the choice of the examiner as to which criteria he gets hung up on -- although a point lost in one criterion should not be penalised by subtracting points due to the same fault in a similar criterion, this is sure to happen. It is foolish to believe that a set of criteria ensures unbiased marking -- it contradicts the basic lessons of ToK itself.

    And even if the criteria were perfectly separate and had one well-defined interpretation that everyone agreed upon (not possible), giving an extremely low amount of points in for example a 10 point criterion will certainly help one make a low score -- it also encourages a slightly biased marker to give low points in other criteria, too.

    Also, there is no need to worship IB criteria: they are just one semi-successful attempt to capture the essence of a good text. My criteria would look very different. OK, of course examiners should try to mark according to them, but one (even the examiner to some extent) must keep an open mind as to what is a good essay -- there are many important aspects of a good essay that are not taken into account in IB criteria. I noticed that it is extremely hard to fit a Maths EE into IB general criteria -- in fact I thought it didn't fit them at all. But it was a good EE in enough ways to deserve 36/40.

    Igor, go and register yourself onto a course on "Logic", please... :rolleyes: According to your logic: "nothing affects anything" and "nothing is worthwile" and "I don't like myself and you shouldn't like yourself either". Pathetic.

    This is my logic: "everything affects everything" and "some things are worthwile, especially matters of justice and principle" and "I like myself and you should like yourself too, unless you're Igor or George W. Bush"

    [OK. I'm sorry to make this into a mud fight and to include politics in it, but someone has to be told how things are. I will try my best to avoid heating up in the future, because "there's no point in fighting with a pig -- you just get covered in mud and the pig thinks it's great fun". This thread is really not about whether one gets good grades, but it is about being fair on oneself and admitting that others may deserve fair treatment as well. QED, THE END, AMEN]
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    you're a miserable little brat, Darkside. you will eventually learn that, to your great disappointment, the world does not revolve around you and that you can't always blame everything else but you for your faults (I can imagine you in a few months: "those stupid Cambridge professors gave me only a D on my paper!!!").
    and hopefully, you will learn some respect for other people and their opinions. you ran out of rational arguments, so you started using offensive and vulgar language, which shows your inability to debate like a normal person. I refuse communicating with people who lack basic manners, so I rest my case upon this matter.
    you, on the other hand, can keep yourself and others entertained with your original, interesting, intelligent and graceful writings. (oh no wait, if you could write like that, you would have got an A. oops)
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    (Original post by Igor)
    you're a miserable little brat, Darkside. you will eventually learn that, to your great disappointment, the world does not revolve around you and that you can't always blame everything else but you for your faults (I can imagine you in a few months: "those stupid Cambridge professors gave me only a D on my paper!!!").
    and hopefully, you will learn some respect for other people and their opinions. you ran out of rational arguments, so you started using offensive and vulgar language, which shows your inability to debate like a normal person. I refuse communicating with people who lack basic manners, so I rest my case upon this matter.
    you, on the other hand, can keep yourself and others entertained with your original, interesting, intelligent and graceful writings. (oh no wait, if you could write like that, you would have got an A. oops)


    Bravo * claps *
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    (Original post by Igor)
    you're a miserable little brat, Darkside. you will eventually learn that, to your great disappointment, the world does not revolve around you and that you can't always blame everything else but you for your faults (I can imagine you in a few months: "those stupid Cambridge professors gave me only a D on my paper!!!").
    And you're a miserable little sod who will soon realise that when you do not receive credit where credit is due you have every reason to appeal. How do you know these are his faults? You automatically assume a degree of infallibility in IB marking which I KNOW does not exist (my old ToK teacher was at the grade award and has seen the sort of messes created by some markers - it is not pretty).

    As for your point about HIS manners, maybe you should re-read your posts on this thread. You have come into it with a strong bias and a desire to deride any of Darkside's accomplishments. Sure, I have read his essay and (no offence intended Darkside) do not believe that it is an A paper, but it is definitely not a 14/40 - such marks are normally given to candidates who can barely string together sentences and shown minimal undestanding of the course.
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    (Original post by Igor)
    actually, the essay is read and assessed by two examiners and then the mean score is taken. if the difference between the two assessments is too large, the third examiner reads the essay and then the final grade is given. surely, not all of the examiners reading your essay could be biased?
    No they are not. If you want to speak with an IB examiner I can give you his e-mail - he can confirm that the vast majority of essays are only marked once and IB never claims to double mark. A portion of every marker's scripts are marked again by a senior examiner (my previous ToK teacher is one) who then provides them with a moderation factor - eg. too hard on top students, so all marks in the 32-40 range will have 2 points added to them. In such a system many mismarked scripts fall through as any examiner will admit.
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    (Original post by Darkside)
    This is my logic: "everything affects everything" and "some things are worthwile, especially matters of justice and principle" and "I like myself and you should like yourself too, unless you're Igor or George W. Bush"
    Darkside:

    It's fantastic to meet someone on this forum who can think about issues in a mature manner and accept constructive criticisms.

    You deserve one reputation point from me.

    Cheers.
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    (Original post by Igor)
    you're a miserable little brat, Darkside. you will eventually learn that, to your great disappointment, the world does not revolve around you and that you can't always blame everything else but you for your faults (I can imagine you in a few months: "those stupid Cambridge professors gave me only a D on my paper!!!").
    and hopefully, you will learn some respect for other people and their opinions. you ran out of rational arguments, so you started using offensive and vulgar language, which shows your inability to debate like a normal person. I refuse communicating with people who lack basic manners, so I rest my case upon this matter.
    you, on the other hand, can keep yourself and others entertained with your original, interesting, intelligent and graceful writings. (oh no wait, if you could write like that, you would have got an A. oops)
    Hey, I'm sorry I used "vulgar(?) language" , but asnac is right in that you started the assault, clearly proven by the following "indirect" insults in the very first offensive message on this thread:

    (Original post by Igor)
    only people with poor self-esteem need confirmation from others, social psychology teaches us. -- others can't be blamed for one's faults.
    I thought your very biased and inadequate debate did not deserve a particularly sensible response. I refuse to linger on such a trivial matter any longer, so I am ending the fight by removing the essay from my site. I will still post when I know the result on the enquiry. I respect well-argued opinions and the opinion "a low mark is always your own fault" is unfortunately not one of them. My success in Maths has been faultless so far, and will probably continue to be such in Cambridge -- the ToK essay has hardly anything to do with that. Think about it: Getting a D with 14/40 after receiving an A from a PhD ToK teacher AND NOT making an enquiry after he advises you to do so. That would be pure madness -- only you might do that . I also am confident enough not to be afraid of mentioning where I succeed (getting a place) or fail (Chemistry). It doesn't seem that your self-confidence quite meets that, so you couldn't resist taking out your regret about not making an enquiry when the time truly was to do that. I believe my award-winning EE and 100% in Finnish speak for themselves as far as intelligent writing is concerned. And about basic manners: "supposedly indirect" assaults are even worse than straight ones, if you ask me. So, Igor, where do you study then?

    P.S. Where are my irrational arguments? :confused: (Someone is studying the wrong subject in choosing Social Sciences, I tell you...)
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    (Original post by neutrino)
    Darkside:

    It's fantastic to meet someone on this forum who can think about issues in a mature manner and accept constructive criticisms.

    You deserve one reputation point from me.

    Cheers.
    You also go to my buddy list. Thank you.
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    (Original post by McGeadie)
    Bravo * claps *
    ??? Another Igor? Logic, someone?

    Ok, I must admit that asnac and neutrino have Logic. They also read the essay unlike McGeadie or the ridiculous Igor.
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    Honestly, I really suggest finishing this discussion here, before you get too far. Just leave it, no matter who's right, who started and so on.

    After all, our IB adventure is all over, isn't it.

    Darkside, I wish you all best at Cambridge. Don't let yourself be irritated by Igor & company. stand above that
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    (Original post by Tomek)
    Darkside, I wish you all best at Cambridge. Don't let yourself be irritated by Igor & company. stand above that
    I will and I have. (Muddled illogical nonsense just irritates a mathematician sometimes...) Case closed. (People with Logic will easily deduce the nature of matters even without my responses. Writing this thread was somewhat fun, though... )
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    So, the show is over.. *Applause*
    I must say that I found this thread highly entertaining to read!

    P.S. Now I am actually curious to read the essay itself!
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    (Original post by SusieQ)
    So, the show is over.. *Applause*
    I must say that I found this thread highly entertaining to read!

    P.S. Now I am actually curious to read the essay itself!
    *applause*
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    (Original post by Tomek)
    Honestly, I really suggest finishing this discussion here, before you get too far. Just leave it, no matter who's right, who started and so on.

    After all, our IB adventure is all over, isn't it.

    Darkside, I wish you all best at Cambridge. Don't let yourself be irritated by Igor & company. stand above that
    You are a wise, wise man.
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    (Original post by SusieQ)
    So, the show is over.. *Applause*
    I must say that I found this thread highly entertaining to read!

    P.S. Now I am actually curious to read the essay itself!
    I will send it to you by e-mail. Anyone mildly reasonable can request it personally, if they want to.
 
 
 

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