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Guardian: 'We are Europeans. Brexit will make us face up to it' watch

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    (Original post by cbreef)
    Why does that matter? Just because we are the same ethnicity doesn't mean we have more in common with them.
    So many EU-philes believe this, and won't admit the roots of their belief.
    They don't understand the UK.

    And, to say we are racist or xenophobic for not entering a political union is offensive and moronic. It could be applied to Russia, or China, or the USA. So France is 21miles from Dover, well so what, Turkey borders Syria. Northern Ireland is as close to Canada as it is to Istanbul. Shall I start a campaign call anyone in Europe who doesn't want political union with the middle East or Russia racist?

    Are you reading Teuton? It is just cold logic.

    These are remains arguments-
    60mil(rising to 100million+) is to small , hopeless size for a nation. 500 million isn't.(They are both minute shares of global, Chinese and Indian population.)
    Failure to accept political union is nationalist and racist. (Though Europe could never be nationalist, and Europe would never accept union beyond it's borders. Though Europe wouldn't be keen on a political union between us and Russia or the USA, and definitely wouldn't call opposing it racist.)
    If we do advocate multiculturalism and civic nationalism as distinct from a European identity, it is all because of colonial racism.(They have no questions to answer ion fascism, anti-semitism and white supremacism, and neo-nazis. None whatsoever, we are all the racists)


    Humans are tribal, it is evolutionary. It is pseudo-sophisticated to think otherwise.Remainers have displayed more tribalism and groupthink than anyone with their 'xenophobe' insults. It is not a question of removing this trait in some deluded utopianism, it is how iyou manifest it. And I'd rather it manifests through civic, non-ethnic, multi-religious British nationalism, or more accurately patriotism, than a white-christian, homogenized Euro identity.

    Teutonic's foolish, naive sixth form doctrine of homogenization, expansionism, utopian zealotry, and the attempt to remove all borders, has been proven by history to be doomed and to cause mass misery. If you want Utopia you will have to cross rivers of blood, and never get there anyhow. And yet is it touted by those who take as a given their moral and intellectual superiority. And people who advocate the 'multi-culture' and diversity of Europe while wanting it homogenized and it's democracies and sovereignties destroyed.

    it is outrageous to mindlessly label all the people who oppose this project racist and stupid.

    Oh, and Teutonic, southern Europe should not 'get their houses in order' ie run an economy within your wishes, of persistent subservience. They should take back economic sovereignty and bring back higher employment, and defy the blackmailers and fearmongers who want them as mere cowed adjuncts(Oh, how pro European of you) to buffer the might of Germany, all the while reducing German power and killing two birds with one stone.
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    (Original post by Elastichedgehog)
    Anyway, I'm pro European, considering Britain's been part of the EU since I was born and that's literally all I've known. I don't quite understand why we'd make a choice with so much economic uncertainty but hey that's democracy. I understand there are plenty of problems with the EU though, for example the legitimacy of the European Commission etc. and if there was a justified reason for voting out in June then I can't hold anyone against that (presuming that justification wasn't motivated by any racist/xenophobic intent) I suppose I've never identified myself as European but that doesn't mean I don't want to be ^.^

    Well that's a refreshingly neutral tone from a remain voter
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    :hahaha:

    Owned.
    Not one bit. I have no idea what he is carping on about. it is not useful for Brits to speak European languages, unless they are living there. Spanish is different because it is all over Latin America and the philipines. French in more parts of the world.
    Russian or Mandarin or Hindi is more important politically.
    But of course English is the global language, of trade, and science, seemingly he hates this dispassionate fact. That's why many Brits don't get deeply into European languages. It isn't some cardinal sin or confirmation of stupidity.

    Are there more Europeans who know Russian or Mandarin or Hindi than Brits Teuton?

    What he wants is a Europe that is limited in it's horizons and trade, people can move between those European countries, rather than go elsewhere, and learn languages from Europe but not from elsewhere. All within a protectionist, stagnant economy.

    I know they hate the commonwealth, it's part of their whole ideology.
    But a Brit can widen their horizons by going to Canada, or South Africa, or India, or Hong Kong, or New Zealand- there is already a thread and and a language in common. Just as there is a thread in common between the languages and cultures of France and Italy and Iberia.

    Nothing remotely xenophobe or inward or wrong with this. But the authoritarian, militant EU-philes have to rail against it with their constant shaming culture.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    How can the flag (or the idea) of a peaceful alliance of nations looking to build bridge and collaborate be nationalist? It's exclusive by definition.

    Where is democracy being ignored? Oh, it's undemocratic when democratically elected representatives -your fault that the EU elections had such a poor turn-out in Britain!- make decisions you don't see aligned with your national interests?


    This abusive relationship - I think you confuse it with a relationship where Britain just negotiated a bad deal. Tough luck. Now you don't even sit at the tabe anymore. Imagine what deal you'll get now?



    Ha! For this, see the article from my original post. In the US, you're nothing but a European nation, and not even the most important one. And what's left then? Canada? Oz and NZ? Enjoy doing big trade with those!



    Countless? You're having a laugh. A small minority, mostly made up of lowly educated xenophobes enticed by nationalist extremists with promises that they'd get their jobs back once the immigrants are gone. The fact that you stand united with these people speaks volumes about you.
    The flag is enforced on profiles on European forums. The propaganda is in schools. It has a creepy, utopian expansionism inherent. The EU is loved by the 'global governance' brigade.

    You ever heard of the Lisbon treaty and Irish and French referendums?

    I don't care what deal we'll get, the EU is breaking up and it's only 15% of the global economy.

    I didn't mention the US as I recall-they are pretty ****ed, We have China, India, Singapore, Africa, the world out there. Who cares about the US, the EU wanted to do their shill TTIP deal with them, more abject serfdom to the corporates, which is entirely in line with the EU's behavioural history.

    A minority like 52%? You going to call them all racist right?

    Just like no-one wants to vote for Trump or Corbyn...establishment is shaking....
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    And, to say we are racist or xenophobic for not entering a political union is offensive and moronic. It could be applied to Russia, or China, or the USA. So France is 21miles from Dover, well so what, Turkey borders Syria. Northern Ireland is as close to Canada as it is to Istanbul. Shall I start a campaign call anyone in Europe who doesn't want political union with the middle East or Russia racist?
    What utterly ridiculous comparisons. The EU is a confederation of nations sharing the same or similar underlying cultural elements and values. The Middle East, China, and to some extent Russia and the USA don't. Then there is shared history, which is heavily influenced by geographic proximity.

    But this all misses the point entirely.

    I never said you -and Leave voters- were xenophobic for not entering a politica union (FYI, you had already entered it, now you are about to leave, but let's get not hung up on unimportant details). You are xenophobic for making a case to leave said union in order to get rid of foreigners and prevent more from coming.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Humans are tribal, it is evolutionary.
    Yep, and in tribal times, people killed each other without consequences, did inbreeding, and **** in wells. We are allowed to move beyond that, you know.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    It is pseudo-sophisticated to think otherwise.Remainers have displayed more tribalism and groupthink than anyone with their 'xenophobe' insults.
    Hmm, let's compare. One group acted like cavemen who don't want to tolerate a foreign tribe in their area - and the other group called them out for that. That's not pseudo-sophisticated, that's bloody common sense!

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    It is not a question of removing this trait in some deluded utopianism, it is how iyou manifest it. And I'd rather it manifests through civic, non-ethnic, multi-religious British nationalism, or more accurately patriotism, than a white-christian, homogenized Euro identity.
    Too bad it's not non-ethnic and multi-religious - the Leave campaign clearly targeted and demonised Arab and Eastern European immigrants as well as Muslims. And where do you see an all-encompassing, all-welcome Euro identity as being white-focused? What are you smoking, mate?

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Teutonic's foolish, naive sixth form doctrine of homogenization, expansionism, utopian zealotry, and the attempt to remove all borders, has been proven by history to be doomed and to cause mass misery.
    What are you referring to? There is simply no recent-enough-to-be-relevant precedent with the same scope, intent, and democratic footing.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    And people who advocate the 'multi-culture' and diversity of Europe while wanting it homogenized and it's democracies and sovereignties destroyed.
    Who wants those destroyed? Not me, not Europhiles! Countries can, no, must keep their identities and democracies.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Oh, and Teutonic, southern Europe should not 'get their houses in order' ie run an economy within your wishes, of persistent subservience. They should take back economic sovereignty and bring back higher employment, and defy the blackmailers and fearmongers who want them as mere cowed adjuncts(Oh, how pro European of you) to buffer the might of Germany, all the while reducing German power and killing two birds with one stone.
    Not subservience, just adherence to commonly agreed-on, tried-and-tested guidelines in alignment with their neighbors which will benefit all parties involved.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    it is not useful for Brits to speak European languages, unless they are living there.
    THIS takes the cake, it MUST be the most stupid thing you have said so far. Please don't prove me wrong.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    But of course English is the global language, of trade, and science, seemingly he hates this dispassionate fact.
    Sure, that is why I studied and practised it to the point where I linguistically and argumentatively dominate an.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    That's why many Brits don't get deeply into European languages. It isn't some cardinal sin or confirmation of stupidity.
    Not necessarily stupidity (even though that is surely often the case), but definitely mono-culturalism, a narrow intellectual horizon, and lack of cultural and linguistic curiosity.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Are there more Europeans who know Russian or Mandarin or Hindi than Brits Teuton?
    Russian or Mandarin probably, yeah. Definitely the case with other European languages.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    What he wants is a Europe that is limited in it's horizons and trade, people can move between those European countries, rather than go elsewhere, and learn languages from Europe but not from elsewhere. All within a protectionist, stagnant economy.
    No, that is not what I want. Where did I say that? That is the opposite of what I want.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    I know they hate the commonwealth, it's part of their whole ideology.
    But a Brit can widen their horizons by going to Canada, or South Africa, or India, or Hong Kong, or New Zealand- there is already a thread and and a language in common. Just as there is a thread in common between the languages and cultures of France and Italy and Iberia.
    Adorable. I've lived in Hong Kong, knowledge of English is very poor there, and nobody cares about Britain anymore. All these countries can be visited by anyone, and they have so much less in common with Britain in terms of culture and history than most European nations.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    Yeah, that became obvious a few weeks ago. The sad thing is that them not agreeing with this anymore is due to highly selfish, often xenophobic, sometimes outright delusional, and always mis- or uninformed and short-sighted motives - not due to the EU being a bad deal.
    Is that what the Guardian told you? :lol:
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    Is that what the Guardian told you? :lol:
    Oh you are so blind.

    I read your points, didn't reply to them because I have seen all of them before and I am not bothered anymore to argue. But sorry, you are so ignorant.

    That is why I personally argue for Remain. You Leavers are a) so blind and b) so hypocritical because you accuse remainers of a).

    Hey, I'm not a xenophobe, I just want to cut immigration while cherrypicking those that I personally need, I don't want to cooperate and contribute to a united Europe, unless it's for trade and other things I directly benefit from, I just think my country is the best and how dare any other countries think they can make laws together with me, I want trade but I want no immigration and yet the latter is a necessary condition of the former. And so on.

    It is truly hilarious. Not the small minded idiots who think something along these lines. But the so-called educated, the arrogant that think they are right and act derogatory towards others based on premises they consider neutrally true when in reality they are just based on selfishness.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    What utterly ridiculous comparisons. The EU is a confederation of nations sharing the same or similar underlying cultural elements and values. The Middle East, China, and to some extent Russia and the USA don't. Then there is shared history, which is heavily influenced by geographic proximity.

    But this all misses the point entirely.

    I never said you -and Leave voters- were xenophobic for not entering a politica union (FYI, you had already entered it, now you are about to leave, but let's get not hung up on unimportant details). You are xenophobic for making a case to leave said union in order to get rid of foreigners and prevent more from coming.

    Too bad it's not non-ethnic and multi-religious -

    What are you referring to? There is simply no recent-enough-to-be-relevant precedent with the same scope, intent, and democratic footing.

    Who wants those destroyed? Not me, not Europhiles! Countries can, no, must keep their identities and democracies.
    .
    I thought you said it was about embracing a diverse identity and not about common roots or monoculture. Now you're saying certain unions can't work because of disparate roots, all the while calling people against UK union with Europe on that basis bigots. Your also assuming there is a great commonality in European cultural and political instincts and British ones, historically or in modern day UK, and I and many leave voters do not unquestioningly accept this and look at our links around the world. We are as different from the mainland as Greece is from Turkey. We have more in common with the anglosphere, judged by the very 'underlying' conditions you are describing. But then you refer to geographic proximity, well then if that's more relevant, then I can point out Europe's proximity to Russia or the middle east. Regardless, we all know the logical conclusion to your arguments is global governance. If you believe British independence is regressive, bigotry, etc, then you logically have to do the same about Europe. What logical certainty or justification do you have, that 100million is parochial, but 500 million is not, when both are minute shares of global population? Now for global governance zealots, this is fine. I happen to think global governance, in the guise of utopia, is about the most sinister and falsely progressive, authoritarian idea known to man.

    You've backtracked. You have smugly and incuriously insulted leave voters intelligence en masse, showing your indoctrinated, authoritarian, blind to objectivity, true colours. It's typical remain. You have called me bigoted from the start, knowing absolutely nothing about my motives. This is what caused more people to vote leave, despite the many that were hectored into by the utterly shameful and desperate 'racist' charge. I didn't make a case based on that, I made it on sovereignty and democracy, and a rejection of corporatism, globalism and authoritarianism, and a rejection of all the absurd charges you remainers made.


    We have a more successful non ethnic and multi-religious identity than any country in Europe. Too high levels of immigration threaten this cohesion. Wwhen you talk of Islam, I'm not PC. Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Taoists, Catholics, Protestants have all gotten along well in the UK. We do, whether you hate it or not, have the most mixed marriages in the world in London, and have the most religous diversity, all under a patriotic Britishness. Recent mass Muslim migration is not the same thing and threatens this, and I suspect some of the hatred you direct at me is projection because of Merkels decisions and your feelings about them. To suggest concern over Islam is racist is deeply disingenuous, and the left use this opportunistically and self-servingly. It is a special case of a militant, authoritarian and brutal religion which many people who value our tolerant liberal society are concerned about, because it posits a real threat to our way of life.

    Democratic footing? Look at how policy is made, look what happened with Lisbon, and the Irish and the French Look at the way the British were deceived in the 70's. Look at what was imposed upon the Greeks.

    “Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose but which will irreversibly lead to federation.”

    Jean Monet, EU founder.
    Countries have no significant democracy, when they have a single currency, no economic sovereignty, when there is a plan for a single army and foreign policy, and a single tax policy. They will have no significant identity if further homogenization, the like of TTIP, so enthusiastically embraced by the entire Euro-establishment go through, allowing US corporates untold power in their countries.

    It is the fault of this project for behaving in the high handed expansionist manner it has done, complete with the arrogant 'necessary deceit' of the apparently stupid that has led to Europe to this point. Political extremes are casued by removing people democracy and their chance of self-determination. it's colonization by stealth. People are voting in puppet elections for an establishment that doesn't represent their views, that has sidelined them and failed to question the economy we are running, for more and more significant decisions made by the EU. When the electorates, as in Ireland and France, reject treaties aggressively pushing further integration, in fakely democratic referendums, they are steamrollered and ignored. When the British turn out in the highest numbers ever to reject this project, all the megabanks and corporates who have lobbied the EU endlessly for legisaltion that obliterates their competition, just as they obliterate democracy(all experts I think, who are experts in caring about the poor and not themselves) talk about overturning and ignoring it.

    As Daniel Hannan says, if you want to know why people are so angry in the first place, along with being mindlessly, baselessly, self-righteously smeared as racists by insufferable people.....there it is.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    Not necessarily stupidity (even though that is surely often the case), but definitely mono-culturalism, a narrow intellectual horizon, and lack of cultural and linguistic curiosity.
    .
    Ah yes, so when there is history, economics, philosophy, mathematics, science, the arts and English is the global language, plus Europe is a small portion of the world, and when there is the entire anglosphere and commonwealth out there which Brits are curious about, despite your protestations, the only way to show your wide horizons is to know a European language which is useless in studying all of the above.

    That British stupidity again, as is so often the case....sigh...how tiresome for you all.

    When are you going to grasp the fact, as a German from what (besides Turks) is one of the biggest monocultures out there, up until this day, that Britain is not monocultural.

    We are already multicultural, with dual identities, Carribean British, Indian British. We are linked by language and heritage to other parts of the world.
    It is quite understandable that many British people do not want another layer of identity on top of this.

    You accuse Britain of being monocultural for rejecting union, because you project and see us through the lens of your own monocultural smug country, even though it flies in the face of all evidence and all comparison to Europe.

    Britain's have an Indian food as their national dish. We eat Caribbean, and Chinese, we have Divali and Hannukah and Asian network, and every musical influence. We have Brick lane, Chinatowns all over the UK. There is diversity and distinct Britishness at once, right in the middle of nowhere in a small town. try finding that in Europe. We have more mixed race children and marriage than anywhere. There are Europeans who are deeply provincial, just because they support the EU says nothing. There are extremely provincial attitudes and places all across France, Germany, Italy where only he local food and culture is seen for miles. There are extraordinarily smug mono- cultural supremacists who often border on racial supremacy too. Why do you get to call the country that eats everything under the sun and racially mixes more than anywhere, and has more religions who are all happy to be here, bigoted? It's a cheap grubby lie, from entitled snobs who are not as intelligent as they believe. We don't want political union with German dominated Europe. We DO have a more multi-religious(though nrightly worried over Islam), non-ethnic pride, like it or not. Deal with it.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)



    Sure, that is why I studied and practised it to the point where I linguistically and argumentatively dominate an -admittedly not very bright- native speaker like you.
    .
    You haven't dominated anything. You've just trotted out endless hackneyed remain platitudes and the received wisdom of the indoctrinated.(It would take a genuinely unbiased observer to have a view) Yes, you would have to study it because of it's significance, and the relative insignificance of European languages. And many Brits have zero reason to learn European languages. This is exactly the point, and the fact that you put it down to stupidity and attempt to shame it just shows how in thrall to this pathetic EU-centric view of the world is, that literally want it's citizens indoctrinated into integration and shame them for their lack of an 'outward looking' tendency, which is bizarrely defined solely as learning EU languages and moving amongst EU countries. The shaming tactics, and ludicrous, baseless smears, only serve to show how emotional, irrational and genuinely propagandized so many remainers are.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    You haven't dominated anything. You've just trotted out endless hackneyed remain platitudes and the received wisdom of the indoctrinated.(It would take a genuinely unbiased observer to have a view) Yes, you would have to study it because of it's significance, and the relative insignificance of European languages. And many Brits have zero reason to learn European languages. This is exactly the point, and the fact that you put it down to stupidity and attempt to shame it just shows how in thrall to this pathetic EU-centric view of the world is, that literally want it's citizens indoctrinated into integration and shame them for their lack of an 'outward looking' tendency, which is bizarrely defined solely as learning EU languages and moving amongst EU countries. The shaming tactics, and ludicrous, baseless smears, only serve to show how emotional, irrational and genuinely propagandized so many remainers are.
    Is it right of you to call every Pro European an idiot/moron or worse because they think remaining in the EU is the best option for Britain?
    I mean, your tone is just horrible, it says a lot about brexiters like you.

    The fact remains that the majority of problems facing this country are not caused by the EU, but by ourselves.
    I feel the EU is being used as a scapegoat for a much larger problem with our country.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    Yeah, that became obvious a few weeks ago. The sad thing is that them not agreeing with this anymore is due to highly selfish, often xenophobic, sometimes outright delusional, and always mis- or uninformed and short-sighted motives - not due to the EU being a bad deal.
    If you look at solely the money in / money out to the EU, the UK has one of the worst deals. Second only to Germany in net payments to the EU budget. Every other country has a net profit with the exceptions of Italy, Fra nd a few small ones like Netherlands.

    Italy pays the same as we do for example, only it recives 50% more in return from the EU. So in net terms it actually pays a quarter of what we do.

    France is another example, I think it pays, in net terms, a third of the UK's contribution. This is with the UK rebate (that the EU were pushing to scrap).

    We're talking around £17 billion a year. That's how much we paid, in net cash terms to the EU in 2013. Wanna know how much support Poland recieved from the EU in 2013? ...£17 billion.

    This is only one part of the argument, but the UK is literally getting taken to the cleaners by comparison to other countries. the EU comission won't even justify how it's all spent and they were asking for increased contributions from the UK.

    Some of my info maybe slightly off, it's a while since I read up on it.

    What does the EU really offer?

    1: Single market access
    2: Free movement of people (Now a doubled edged sword)

    At the cost of:
    1.No trade deals allowed outside the EU market.
    2.More devolved power to the EU.
    3. Endless stangnant beuaracracy of the lumbering EU where everything must be debated and agreed upon by all members.
    4. EU rules and regs tieing our hands over how we decide torun the country.
    5. A small but reasonable and increasing amount of money.

    I think it was even put forward that even with WTO tarrifs, in hard cash (excluding any indirect benefits) we would be better off paying tarrifs that sending £17billion to the EU every year.

    Not good enough I hear you say? OKAY! Not to worry, we'll simply go and talk to the EU about changes to....oh....they told us to get lost....
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    (Original post by cbreef)
    Is it right of you to call every Pro European an idiot/moron or worse because they think remaining in the EU is the best option for Britain?
    I mean, your tone is just horrible, it says a lot about brexiters like you.

    The fact remains that the majority of problems facing this country are not caused by the EU, but by ourselves.
    I feel the EU is being used as a scapegoat for a much larger problem with our country.
    I am under no illusions about the massive problems in our country. I believe they are best solved by finally rediscovering the national interests and becoming more civilized to each other, however I also recognise we are tribal. This is why I want a multi-ethnic, multi-religious patriotic British tribe and don't want the EU on top of that as a further attempt at multiple identities and loyalties as I believe it is damaging to this vision. (I don't wan't a pan European white christian identity over the British one I described) and I also believe that we are economically and democratically damaged long term by it, and I think it's dangerous when people succumbing to zealous, globalist, authoritarian expansionism. I think it will end in tears when people have identities and democracy taken away. It already had caused economic depression and misery. I believe the UK, self contained, must stop self-flagellating and trying to solve the worlds problems. Not because I'm evil or a bigot, which is such an outrageous smear on us all, but because I am genuinely proud of our multi ethnic multi religious and innovative peoples, and I believe the double identity works, and we have a remarkable able to be flexible and mix it with Britishness, and we have links to the globe via language. We should not feel ashamed about this, and not assume people who insult us have the moral high ground.

    I also think we can only effect real change in a more cohesive society looking to the national interest, rather than engaged in misguided and often downright corrupt globalism.

    I'm sorry you find my tone as such. I am civilized to anyone who is civilized with me. But put it in context of the whole discussion, the insults and condescension and anti-Britishness in it, and the things so many remainers have said to leavers. I know not all of them are like that, and I know many are intelligent. But what many remainers don't understand, is that many on our side have been met with endless self-satisfaction, and odious, unfair smears of racism, and sneering, snobby condescension too long. You try and put your case and have to meet it again and again. Many even admit how it's just right to treat us that way. Many remainers talk about irrelevant older voters, as though thought and contemplation and years can mean nothing. The poor have been treated as less than human in this country, and divided, especially white working class males, for so long. It is morally wrong to call people racist opportunistically just because they may be patriotic, and wish for independence. Swathes of the country have been ignored by the political class and sneered at, and now we are supposed to feel sorry for a Labour party that treat members wishes with contempt(when record numbers sign up and give them money, and actually get reinvolved in democracy and feel they can change anything-heaven forbid) treats it heartlands with contempt, a BBC and political class that treats the biggest turn out for democracy in our history with contempt, and a bankster and corporate class that lobbies the EU for dominance who wants to overturn peoples will along with the rest. This is why people are angry.

    I didn't attack the guy or vote to leave because I am a 'knuckle dragging racist' or xenophobe, this is outrageous and cheap. I did it because I'm proud of diverse Britain that still holds a distinct identity, and I dislike some EU supporters derision for the commonwealth, and our provincialism, because I regard that as contempt and European cultural provincialism and thinly veiled racism, while they accuse us of the bigotry. He was trying to shame the idea of connections with other parts of the world, (and insist how stupid we all were for not learning EU langauges )which I believe are surpressed by the EU. He was saying how they all thought nothing of us or hated us, typical shaming tactics, how irrelevant we are, how hopeless etc etc. The saying how we should show 'solidarity' with the EU and Eurozone that only benefits Germnay. I am showing solidarity with Southern Europe. Greece, the birthplace of civilization, has been humiliated and colonized by German banks. Italy has lost it's wealth through the Euro. Too many remainers assume anti-EU = anti European or racist, and this is caused by manipulation and lies.
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    (Original post by Pegasus2)
    If you look at solely the money in / money out to the EU, the UK has one of the worst deals. Second only to Germany in net payments to the EU budget. Every other country has a net profit with the exceptions of Italy, Fra nd a few small ones like Netherlands.

    Italy pays the same as we do for example, only it recives 50% more in return from the EU. So in net terms it actually pays a quarter of what we do.

    France is another example, I think it pays, in net terms, a third of the UK's contribution. This is with the UK rebate (that the EU were pushing to scrap).

    We're talking around £17 billion a year. That's how much we paid, in net cash terms to the EU in 2013. Wanna know how much support Poland recieved from the EU in 2013? ...£17 billion.

    This is only one part of the argument, but the UK is literally getting taken to the cleaners by comparison to other countries. the EU comission won't even justify how it's all spent and they were asking for increased contributions from the UK.

    Some of my info maybe slightly off, it's a while since I read up on it.

    What does the EU really offer?

    1: Single market access
    2: Free movement of people (Now a doubled edged sword)

    At the cost of:
    1.No trade deals allowed outside the EU market.
    2.More devolved power to the EU.
    3. Endless stangnant beuaracracy of the lumbering EU where everything must be debated and agreed upon by all members.
    4. EU rules and regs tieing our hands over how we decide torun the country.
    5. A small but reasonable and increasing amount of money.

    I think it was even put forward that even with WTO tarrifs, in hard cash (excluding any indirect benefits) we would be better off paying tarrifs that sending £17billion to the EU every year.

    Not good enough I hear you say? OKAY! Not to worry, we'll simply go and talk to the EU about changes to....oh....they told us to get lost....
    Point 1 is incorrect, but I'll give you the rest.
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    Being European and being in the European Union has nothing to do with each other. One is a political union masquerading as a trade project and the other is a distinct continental identity formed by hundreds of years of culture. We will still be European after we leave the EU, except we will not have to surrender a considerable portion of national power to a bunch of unaccountable bureaucrats.


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    Sorry Guardian but I am British first and last.
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    (Original post by Sycatonne23)
    Being European and being in the European Union has nothing to do with each other. One is a political union masquerading as a trade project and the other is a distinct continental identity formed by hundreds of years of culture. We will still be European after we leave the EU, except we will not have to surrender a considerable portion of national power to a bunch of unaccountable bureaucrats.


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    European by definition. Nothing more.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    Oh you are so blind.

    I read your points, didn't reply to them because I have seen all of them before and I am not bothered anymore to argue. But sorry, you are so ignorant.

    That is why I personally argue for Remain. You Leavers are a) so blind and b) so hypocritical because you accuse remainers of a).

    Hey, I'm not a xenophobe, I just want to cut immigration while cherrypicking those that I personally need, I don't want to cooperate and contribute to a united Europe, unless it's for trade and other things I directly benefit from, I just think my country is the best and how dare any other countries think they can make laws together with me, I want trade but I want no immigration and yet the latter is a necessary condition of the former. And so on.

    It is truly hilarious. Not the small minded idiots who think something along these lines. But the so-called educated, the arrogant that think they are right and act derogatory towards others based on premises they consider neutrally true when in reality they are just based on selfishness.
    This really cracked me up. You bremainers are like human newsthump articles! Speaking of which, you'll probably find this one relatable:

    http://newsthump.com/2016/08/18/far-...ain-supporter/
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    This really cracked me up. You bremainers are like human newsthump articles! Speaking of which, you'll probably find this one relatable:

    http://newsthump.com/2016/08/18/far-...ain-supporter/
    I have absolutely no political motivation either way. I am not British nor live there.

    I just find it hilarious how stupid people get when they are blinded by bias.
 
 
 
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