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Using gears to slow down - good or bad? watch

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    (Original post by gbduo)
    Modern cars don't use any fuel when slowing down using gears, the computer can tell when the car is slowing down and keeps the engine running by using the momentum of the car, rather than fuel.
    other of course than when you're in the middle of the gear changes... when it's fuelling to keep the engine (now detatched from the drive train) running

    zero throttle opening in gear and braking using the service brake so there is still a direct conncetion between the road and crankshaft...
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    its not a bad thing infact if i can get rear lock in the 14 it can help me go sideways
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    (Original post by zippyRN)
    other of course than when you're in the middle of the gear changes... when it's fuelling to keep the engine (now detatched from the drive train) running

    zero throttle opening in gear and braking using the service brake so there is still a direct conncetion between the road and crankshaft...
    How long does it take for you to change down!?

    Look at it like this, you use fuel for a half a second with engine braking when changing down Vs 20 seconds if fuel is supplied throughout braking; which one of those options is going to use more fuel?

    Tosser.

    Use engine braking, if not for the environment, but for the sake of braking. Engine braking is necessary and helps greatly in aiding the braking of the car. It forms a part of the braking system. To argue against that is idiotic.
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    Heel and Toe!
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    (Original post by zippyRN)
    you are an argumentative fool, who obviously believes he knows aobut driving ... here's a clue my other car is white and has lights, noise and fluorescent stripes
    Someone decided to neg me! awww.

    I know enough about driving to realise a dynamo has NO effect on a vehicles braking system.
    I do not "believe" that I am good behind the wheel. I KNOW I am good. I was tutored to death on track for more hours than i care to think about by Deborah Evans. Former Formula ford + Ginetta challenge champion.

    As for your "clue" are you a chav perhapse?

    I suppose you share the mentality of every other plod. Who, wrongfully assume they have the tallent of michael schumacher behind the uniform.
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    I also don't think Road Craft should be repeatedly brought into this with claims that it goes against engine braking, I couldn't see any such statements. Of course claiming it says such things when the mass majority of people on here don't have the book is a bit of a good bluff!
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    If I'm coming up to a junction I slow down with the brakes but carry on in the gear I'm in, which is usually third, then as I stop at the junction slip it into first and handbrake it. If I'm coming up to an clearly open junction or roundabout I slow down, take it into second when I'm slow enough and then whatever's necessary. I used to slow down with my gears coming up to junctions, but doing it this way I've noticed I get a much smoother and safer-feeling drive.
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    (Original post by zippyRN)
    who taught you that?

    carlos fandango?

    because it isn't what roadcraft says , what decent ADIs teach or what is taught on post basic driving courses ...

    Information , Position, Speed, Gear ,Accerlation

    Speed before Gear





    stop fooling yourrself that you are Colin McRae and go and read roadcraft ...
    Lol tbh mate roadcraft can say what it wants, its hardly the bible of driving is it?

    So your saying your coming up 2 a roundabout and you'd rather say be at the botom of the rev range in 4th gear for example and then if you see a gap you can slip it into third and then accelerate, wasting time essentially, however i know i would prefer to be in the power band in 3rd already, my car naturally deccelerating and as soon as i see a gap pushing the gas ( no need for a multisecond gear change) and making it. I really cant see no benefit to your argument there... pls correct me though

    And no son i dont think im "colin mcrae" heel toe braking is nothing special it just prolongs your cluth and possibly gearbox as well as making for much smmother downchanges, i suggest you try the method out
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    (Original post by JC.)
    Someone decided to neg me! awww.

    I know enough about driving to realise a dynamo has NO effect on a vehicles braking system.
    I do not "believe" that I am good behind the wheel. I KNOW I am good. I was tutored to death on track for more hours than i care to think about by Deborah Evans. Former Formula ford + Ginetta challenge champion.

    As for your "clue" are you a chav perhapse?

    I suppose you share the mentality of every other plod. Who, wrongfully assume they have the tallent of michael schumacher behind the uniform.
    who said i was plod ? look at the screen name and i ain't no matelot

    i scrape the idiots who get it wrong up off the road in one of my roles / look after the idiots who got it worong in another of my roles ....

    still you seize on and try to make a serious point about my reference to 'cross plies, dynamos and drums' - i.e. the representative vehicle of when many people's parents, uncles and aunts and grandparents learnt to drive - if not their instructors car then quite possibly their first 'own' car...

    the fact a vehicle has a dynamo makes little difference to the mechanics of braking other than there is little or no physical way that a dynamo equipped vehicle could have any braking or stability aid beyond a vacuum servo rather than the whole raft of braking and stability devices which have been increasingly common across all vehicles over the past 20 or so years ( iirc the original jellymould granada/ scorpio was the first mass market vehicle with range wide ABS in the uk /europe)

    yet another fool who thinks that track techniques translate to the road and dismisses roadcraft ...

    don't worry the drivers with roadcraft based training with come and collect the wrecks ( both flesh and mechanical ) when you get it wrong ...

    Roadcraft teachs progressive driving for the road, ultimately sticking firmly to roadcraft round a track will be slower than dedicated track techniques, however roadcraft techniques give an extra margin of safety for driving on
    roads with the conflicts that oncoming traffic, other road users and less than ideal sightlines present...

    interestingly those who 'think' they are good drivers pose the greatest risks - if nothing read the driver atttiude and 'red mist' sections of roadcraft...
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    (Original post by pghstochaj)
    I also don't think Road Craft should be repeatedly brought into this with claims that it goes against engine braking, I couldn't see any such statements. Of course claiming it says such things when the mass majority of people on here don't have the book is a bit of a good bluff!
    why not ?

    roadcraft is the text that is used as the base text by the majority if not all of the Emergency service response driving courses ...

    roadcraft's methods underpin what IAM and RoADA look for ...

    roadcraft's methods somewhat diluted underpin what DSA examiners look for in non vocational tests ...

    the Information , Position, Speed, Gear , Accerlation 'system' underpins the majority of driver tuition i have recieved for the road, whether it's DSA, minibuses, emergency vehicle ....

    Roadcraft doesn't 'ban' engine braking - it specifically rfers to it's use in soecific situations, and to a degree if you anticipate and use 'acceleration sense' you use engine braking to a degree anyway, what roadcraft, Driving and the doctrine of the DSA, the advanced driving organisations and the emergency services no longer supports for Cat B and cat C1/ cat D1 vehicles is traditional sequential gear changing as braking ...


    it is quite apparent reading the postings on here that many of the self appointed drivign experts on the board are 'reactive' drivers rather than 'anticipative' drivers


    imagin if you will an urban 40 mph limit divided carriageway without grade speperated junctions ( fairly typical for a urban / suburban 'ring road' or the like)

    the reactive driver will charge between the sets of red lights / roundabouts often coming to a complete stop and waiting at each junction - loads of speed significant periods of time at (or above ) the speed limit but not all that much 'progress'

    the anticipative driver will be using acceleration sense and observation to maintain a much more even speed, leading to asmoother journey with better fuel economy, less wear on the vehicle and quite possibly the same if not better 'progress'

    look how an emergency vehicle m oves through traffic when 'on the bell' for an example of anticipiative driving - also look how little compativiely the brakes are used compared to 'acceleration sense'
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    (Original post by leonard2910)
    Lol tbh mate roadcraft can say what it wants, its hardly the bible of driving is it?
    what would you suggest is ?

    given that

    'Driving' = watered down roadcraft

    DSA test standard for cat B = watered down roadcraft

    core text for Police, EFAD and IHCD emergency driving courses = roadcraft

    core text for IAM, RoADA, MiDAS and things like SaFED = roadcraft

    So your saying your coming up 2 a roundabout and you'd rather say be at the botom of the rev range in 4th gear for example and then if you see a gap you can slip it into third and then accelerate, wasting time essentially, however i know i would prefer to be in the power band in 3rd already, my car naturally deccelerating and as soon as i see a gap pushing the gas ( no need for a multisecond gear change) and making it. I really cant see no benefit to your argument there... pls correct me though
    you are going to be in the correct gear to 'go ' at your 'go / no go' decision - which is a lot earlier if you drive in an anticipative , observational style than in the reactive style that seems so common

    And no son i dont think im "colin mcrae" heel toe braking is nothing special it just prolongs your cluth and possibly gearbox as well as making for much smmother downchanges, i suggest you try the method out
    heel and toe is a track technique predominantly

    if it wer so important would the Met be using automatics as response vehicles? would several Ambulance services use automatics as response vehicles?

    track techniques that save thousandths of a second are irrelevant to safe, progressive road driving
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    (Original post by zippyRN)
    why not ?

    roadcraft is the text that is used as the base text by the majority if not all of the Emergency service response driving courses ...

    roadcraft's methods underpin what IAM and RoADA look for ...

    roadcraft's methods somewhat diluted underpin what DSA examiners look for in non vocational tests ...

    the Information , Position, Speed, Gear , Accerlation 'system' underpins the majority of driver tuition i have recieved for the road, whether it's DSA, minibuses, emergency vehicle ....

    Roadcraft doesn't 'ban' engine braking - it specifically rfers to it's use in soecific situations, and to a degree if you anticipate and use 'acceleration sense' you use engine braking to a degree anyway, what roadcraft, Driving and the doctrine of the DSA, the advanced driving organisations and the emergency services no longer supports for Cat B and cat C1/ cat D1 vehicles is traditional sequential gear changing as braking ...


    it is quite apparent reading the postings on here that many of the self appointed drivign experts on the board are 'reactive' drivers rather than 'anticipative' drivers


    imagin if you will an urban 40 mph limit divided carriageway without grade speperated junctions ( fairly typical for a urban / suburban 'ring road' or the like)

    the reactive driver will charge between the sets of red lights / roundabouts often coming to a complete stop and waiting at each junction - loads of speed significant periods of time at (or above ) the speed limit but not all that much 'progress'

    the anticipative driver will be using acceleration sense and observation to maintain a much more even speed, leading to asmoother journey with better fuel economy, less wear on the vehicle and quite possibly the same if not better 'progress'

    look how an emergency vehicle m oves through traffic when 'on the bell' for an example of anticipiative driving - also look how little compativiely the brakes are used compared to 'acceleration sense'
    It shouldn't be brought into the discussion as you appear to be totally misrepresenting what it says....

    it is quite apparent reading the postings on here that many of the self appointed drivign experts on the board are 'reactive' drivers rather than 'anticipative' drivers
    I also smile at how you suggest that myself and others have driving skills of a certain standard when you have never sat in a car with myself or others. I think you will find engine braking is considered proactive rather than reactive driving, if somebody told me they didn't use engine braking I would presume that they only ever act reactively. That's obvious to me, maybe not to yourself however.

    The scenario you have made up? The first driver is very unlikely to use any engine braking and the latter is likely to use it as a change of speed tool, as suggest by Roadcraft.

    I am not sure what you're arguing anymore tbh, you can't claim Roadcraft says things it doesn't, my copy is beside me.
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    returning to the original postings o nthe subject , such gems as

    "Sometimes, if I am in 4th and am about to stop at a junction I slow down into 2nd, and then lift clutch up a bit (engine braking?) to slow the car down, before stopping like normal.

    Is this a bad thing?

    Will it wear out the clutch faster?

    I am talking about general driving, not driving test conditions."

    "It is always a good idea to use engine breaking it gives you a lot more control in conditions were breaks are not suitable, e.g approaching a busy junction you can't simply break as you would be in too high a gear and the car will start juddering."

    "At 20 mph my JTD would be doing 650 RPM. i.e. it would have stalled. You don't want to be anywhere near your idle RPM, if you are, you're in the wrong gear. Small petrol engines will handle it better due to having lower speed gearing."

    this shows that peopel really don't have the slightest clue aobut car control, what is or isn't approrpaite, even quite simply how to drive in a progressive safe and fuel efficient manner...

    as you claim to have a copy of roadcraft by tyour sde where does it say that you should change down sequentially and use /or use engine braking in preference to normal brakes outside of the specified special cases.

    and BTW acceleration sense isn't using the engine instead of the brakes

    still can't see anyonewith a valid suggestion of an alternative reference text than roadcraft ...
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    Wow good in depth conversation about whether engine breaking is good or not, its allways good to hear other sides to the argument but i personally am an "engine breaker"

    Although the bit about the met using automatics? whats that gotta do with anything? and actually you will find that automatics "automatically" do what i suggest, match the down changes and so in theory automatics are using the same pricniple, howevr there is no need to heel-toe as it is done by the car

    And this stuff about anticipative and reactive driving? well i know im fairly anticipitave. But then surely somebody who is downchanging before an obstacle such as roundabout etc is being anticipatvie whereas someone who waits to see whats happening and then down-changes is being reactive?
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    Engine braking was on the few useful things my dad taught me driving, some instructors aren't always positive about it. I think its more of a advanced driver thing and not best for learners starting off.
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    "At 20 mph my JTD would be doing 650 RPM. i.e. it would have stalled. You don't want to be anywhere near your idle RPM, if you are, you're in the wrong gear. Small petrol engines will handle it better due to having lower speed gearing."

    this shows that peopel really don't have the slightest clue aobut car control, what is or isn't approrpaite, even quite simply how to drive in a progressive safe and fuel efficient manner...
    Excuse me? How does that show anything? Slighest clue about car control? What are you talking about?
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    I would stop Paul, i agree with you and that shows something in itself!

    Obviously Roadcraft (or whatever name dropped book he has used) will say speed before gear, you don't want to drop into first if you are slowing from 70! Duh...!

    That is not to say you should not slow down through the gears, it aids braking and saves you fuel. Why would you not!?

    I do not believe any emergency drivers brake with the clutch depressed!

    Graham
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    If you agree with me Graham I am probably wrong
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    Ouch! That was NOT called for!

    Love you too.
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    I am just taking missing you out on you, I am sorry :p:
 
 
 
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