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    Go to JW.org you will get a full explained answer including bible verses
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    (Original post by PrincessZee)
    Go to JW.org you will get a full explained answer including bible verses
    Jehovah's Witnesses are a disgusting cult

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    (Original post by RobML)
    Refer to my previous post.

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    But that's not allowing something to happen. That's giving someone the choice of doing good or bad, and that someone messing up and doing the wrong thing.

    Similar to what someone else rightly posted on here, whoever invented the knife did so knowing it could be used for good, but also that it could kill people, and that it WOULD be used for killing by some people. That person doesn't get the blame for every death involving a knife since. Because, as the post also rightly said, the knife isn't just going to disappear before it can hurt someone.

    I genuinely believe that every single one of us is born with a path decided for us, which will lead to success and happiness, but it's so so easy to stray off that path with the free will that allows us to do anything good or bad. It's all about what path you decide to follow. The test is if you can stay on the right path avoiding any temptation using your own free will.
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    (Original post by FightToWin)
    But that's not allowing something to happen. That's giving someone the choice of doing good or bad, and that someone messing up and doing the wrong thing.
    It's only an illusionary choice since God would have predetermined everything.

    And I think the knife analogy is pretty poor for a few reasons:
    -The knife maker doesn't have the ability to forsee everything his knives will be used for
    -The knife maker did not create the users of the knives
    -The knife maker doesn't have the ability to create knives that cannot harm people

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    (Original post by RobML)
    It's only an illusionary choice since God would have predetermined everything.

    And I think the knife analogy is pretty poor for a few reasons:
    -The knife maker doesn't have the ability to forsee everything his knives will be used for
    -The knife maker did not create the users of the knives
    -The knife maker doesn't have the ability to create knives that cannot harm people

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    But if God knows our future actions, how does that mean we have no choice?
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    But if God knows our future actions, how does that mean we have no choice?
    Well, God creating everything is what's more important there.
    Depends on what exact definition of choice you have in mind anyway.

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    Solipsism if you wanna bring it to the extreme.........
    You yourself are god so you allow all this suffering to occur.
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    (Original post by RobML)
    Well, God creating everything is what's more important there.
    Depends on what exact definition of choice you have in mind anyway.

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    He could have created us neutral.

    Anyway how does our lack of choice remove his title of omnibenevolence?
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    He could have created us neutral.

    Anyway how does our lack of choice remove his title of omnibenevolence?
    If you suggest suffering exists because we have the choice to act bad, but those choices were predetermined by God, then you're back to square one again.
    And that's not even getting into the issue of suffering that doesn't originate from the action of humans.

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    (Original post by RobML)
    If you suggest suffering exists because we have the choice to act bad, but those choices were predetermined by God, then you're back to square one again.
    And that's not even getting into the issue of suffering that doesn't originate from the action of humans.

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    Idrc what kind of suffering it is or where it comes from. Why does the presence of suffering remove the title?
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    Idrc what kind of suffering it is or where it comes from. Why does the presence of suffering remove the title?
    God creates suffering therefore God is not omnibenevolent. It's pretty simple.

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    (Original post by RobML)
    God creates suffering therefore God is not omnibenevolent. It's pretty simple.

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    What if the suffering has reasons behind it? If God is all-good then every action he does must outclass the goodness of every alternative action he could do right?

    So as an analogy when Jesus suffered and died it could be a more good action of letting his son die on the cross than saving him becuase of how it brings salvation and removes sin etc.
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    What if the suffering has reasons behind it? If God is all-good then every action he does must outclass the goodness of every alternative action he could do right?
    But God has the ability to elimate all suffering and still provide whatever goodness you may be hinting at here. Yet God does not.
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    (Original post by RobML)
    But God has the ability to elimate all suffering and still provide whatever goodness you may be hinting at here. Yet God does not.
    Yeah sure. But what if that action isn't "good"? Saving Jesus might be considered bad because letting him die shows you how much he loves you. If he's saved he can't dien for you and hence show his love.

    If one guy is in hell becuase he misbehaved and then God decides to end his suffering early and submit him into heavan, what if that action is considered bad because God did not carry out justice?
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    Yeah sure. But what if that action isn't "good"? Saving Jesus might be considered bad because letting him die shows you how much he loves you. If he's saved he can't dien for you and hence show his love.

    If one guy is in hell becuase he misbehaved and then God decides to end his suffering early and submit him into heavan, what if that action is considered bad because God did not carry out justice?
    You're straying into morality now which is an entirely different world to suffering and pleasure. I'm talking about bad = suffering and good = non-suffering/pleasure.
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    (Original post by RobML)
    You're straying into morality now which is an entirely different world to suffering and pleasure. I'm talking about bad = suffering and good = non-suffering/pleasure.
    Erm ok. Omni-benevolent means all-good so I don't really see how you can discuss this without discussing morality. Basically the way I see it, suffering can be good in God's objective sight.
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    Erm ok. Omni-benevolent means all-good so I don't really see how you can discuss this without discussing morality.]Basically the way I see it, suffering can be good in God's objective sight
    Yeah kind of falling asleep and got lost there.

    anyway

    You say suffering can be good, which still means there is bad suffering. God still allows bad things to happen.
    The only defense against that I can conceive of is that all suffering is good, and by extension everything is good and therefore there is no bad and evil. But then morality just becomes meaningless.
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    Because if a god exists he/she isn't omnibenevolent. Funny thing is, that also makes he/she not omnipotent either, as he/she has no control over him/herself.

    To quote the Dhammapada, "though you may conquer a thousand men a thousand times, the one who conquers himself is the greater warrior." What this means is that people who achieve omnibenevolence by taming their minds are greater than any gods who may or may not exist. So the phrase "Allahu Akbar" or "God is greatest" and all equivalents of that phrase are false. That's actually pretty reassuring in a way. It basically means that if a god's really out there, while he/she's forever stuck being his/her usual deranged self, mankind can rise above that.

    I don't mean to sound preachy, but it is kind of fun to use theology against theology. Of course, this is assuming a god exists - which in all likelihoods is a false assumption.
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    Erm ok. Omni-benevolent means all-good so I don't really see how you can discuss this without discussing morality. Basically the way I see it, suffering can be good in God's objective sight.
    But wiping out all humans on Earth except for one family simply because not enough people were worshipping you is pretty extreme, don't you think? Especially when given the fact that every person can change...
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    (Original post by RobML)
    It's only an illusionary choice since God would have predetermined everything.

    And I think the knife analogy is pretty poor for a few reasons:
    -The knife maker doesn't have the ability to forsee everything his knives will be used for
    -The knife maker did not create the users of the knives
    -The knife maker doesn't have the ability to create knives that cannot harm people

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    Whether or not something is pre-determined you still have to make the choice at some point that you're going to/ not going to do it. It could be pre-determined what you're going to have for tea on the 19th March 2020, but you still need to make that choice what you're going to have and something tells me you don't plan your meals that far ahead.

    Regarding your other points:
    1) He invented something for cutting things knowing full well that could (and would) be used for cutting people as well. Anything else is irrelevant.
    2.) That's correct, but people still need to make the choice what to use it for.. Free will, blah blah..
    3. (And this refers to the conversation you're having with Champ as well.. Let's not get you involved in two debates at once and confuse things):

    There's hardly any physical objects in this world that can't be used in some way to kill or harm. I could whack someone over the head with a bible if I wanted to.

    If you wanted to remove ALL suffering, there's only two options.. One is to remove all physical harm by wrapping us in cotton wool for the rest of our lives.. Oh wait that wouldn't work, you can smother people with cotton wool. So basically just remove everything physical and let us float in nothingness with no people around us in case we punch them. That sounds like worse suffering to me that what goes on in this world. So the only other option is to remove all free will to stop us doing bad things. In other words we become mindless zombies only being able to feel God pulling our strings doing what He wants us to do... Making us live a perfect life with perfect things where we don't serve a purpose, just kind of watching a movie in first person. Doing things we might not want to do.

    Suffering may be bad, but I can guarantee its not anywhere near as bad as any of those two options. I think you'd agree with that.


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