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    (Original post by Dodgypirate)
    Fair response.

    I do think, however, that all Nazis were bad people, and not all Muslims are bad.

    It's difficult to respond... sorry
    No probs, I just thought it needed qualifying a bit (if that makes sense.)

    I do understand what you mean, but perhaps it could have been reworded.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Who understands the difference?
    (Please give reasons for your answer. Also, could you state your age, because I believe there may be a correlation)
    We're already seeing comparisons with Muslims and Nazis/racists/"insert bad people who deserve hatred" on this thread and questions regarding why it's okay to hate the latter but not the former; evidently, the difference is not as clear as you may think.

    I've seen people on this site justify anti-Muslim bigotry and harassment of Muslims in public on the basis that Muslims willingly choose to associate with the Islamic "ideology", and that anti-Muslim bigotry may deter people from following Islam and thus limit its growth.

    Are you willing to condemn such anti-Muslim bigotry on this thread in the same manner you might condemn Islam for example?

    I'm 22; we've known each other for a while now so I hope it's clear I'm no "SJW", but there comes a point where even we have to say "enough is enough".
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    (Original post by lawyer3c)
    Of course. But in very different ways, especially with regard to the harm caused to society, I'm sure you understand.
    I just find it odd that you chose to ignore them in your exlanation.

    How are the ways "very different"?
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    I'm defending the innocent Muslims who are suffering a wave of Islamophobia as a result of these terrorist attacks. I am not defending Islam as a religion.
    Hypocrite.

    1. You say Muslims are allowed to hold whatever belief they want as long as they don't act on it.

    2. Yet we aren't allowed to hold these beliefs at all.

    3. You care so much about not aggravating Muslims because that will just make them terrorists.

    4. And yet they can get off-scot free in your eyes (we aren't allowed to criticize Islam) when they do something, but when someone on the other side does something you speak out against these terrible Islamophobes.

    You are a really low being. Pretending to be something good, accusing others, ,slandering them, and yet the very same things you preach against, you do yourself. Frankly it's quite disgusting to read your posts.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    People should be free to criticise religions as much as they like.

    But people should be wary when constantly attributing Islam and 'backwards cultures' as the sole cause of terrorism. We've seen innocent Muslims killed in New York recently, and I doubt that it will be the last of such incidents.

    Many people like you think that the shield of 'freedom to criticise' gives you the freedom to constantly hate on it.
    So, was that an "I can't tell the difference"?
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    I must admint I do struggle with this

    Islam is a turd of a faith. It has abhorrent tenants that have no place in civil society and should be actively fought where ever it raises its ugly head.

    Now if someone says to me I am a muslim and proud I will just dismiss them as they openly claim to be part of something I detest

    I know I keep going Godwin but it's the same with the Nazis

    No one said it's OK to hate National socialism but you can't hate individual Nazis as that would be bigotry

    It's the same with racism no one said you can hate racism but not individual racists

    so I am confused as why we would give muslims this free pass when for any other hate filled ideology we don't
    Interesting point. I guess it would depend on how far along the ideological scale they position themselves, and without knowing the individual it is impossible to know this.
    I know some people take the "all Muslims believe the Quran is 100% perfect and universal, and Muhammad the perfect and universal example, therefore they all support abhorrent practices and beliefs" approach, which is fair enough I suppose, but there are some Muslims who take a more nuanced approach to scriptural infallibility and universality, so I would possibly steer clear of it. But if an individual unequivocally claims perfection, beauty, universality, etc, then yes, I think your use of Godwin could be argued.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    comparing Muslims to Nazis is pretty absurd
    Still not found out what an analogy is then?
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Because the vast majority of Muslims have no ill-intent. The vast majority of Nazis, however, did.
    Can you substantiate this? Did most members of the National Socialist German Workers Party during the 1930s have "ill-intent"?

    Isn't that a bit like saying "all Muslims are homophobic and pro-slavery", simply because those are elements of the ideology?
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    (Original post by JimmyHendrix)
    Moderators have an agenda, they are picking people from a certain demographic such as - Islamophiles, socialists, liberals, LGTB, eithnic minorities and these people will not hesitate to ban you Immediately if you disagree with them or have an opinion of your own. I have heard of people who have been banned on TSR immediately, without any warning whatsoever, for merely having a heated discussion about a sensitive issue and expressing an opinion that the mods don't agree with.
    There's plenty of anti Islam threads about.

    The mods are just volunteers, I don't think they're part of some evil conspiracy against you :lol:
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Interesting point. I guess it would depend on how far along the ideological scale they position themselves, and without knowing the individual it is impossible to know this.
    I know some people take the "all Muslims believe the Quran is 100% perfect and universal, and Muhammad the perfect and universal example, therefore they all support abhorrent practices and beliefs" approach, which is fair enough I suppose, but there are some Muslims who take a more nuanced approach to scriptural infallibility and universality, so I would possibly steer clear of it. But if an individual unequivocally claims perfection, beauty, universality, etc, then yes, I think your use of Godwin could be argued.
    And this is the point

    Without knowing the individual and being able to cross check which bits they think are acceptable than all I can do is judge them on the ideology they choose to follow.

    But my question is why do we have to take this stance with Islam and Muslims for example but not with other hate filled ideologies (for example I have argued with racists with a wide spectrum of beliefs for example some who think black people should be killed to those who think they are OK if they stay in Africa so even they have a nuanced argument regarding their issues with race but it doesn't stop me form simply dismissing them as hate filled idiots.)

    as I said we would never argue it's OK to hate National Socialism but not individual Nazis . I once spoke to a German women whose farther was a Nazi and she said he didn't want the Jews exterminated just deported so according to the logic we are told we should apply to Muslims we should conclude he was a much better Nazi than those who wanted the Jews killed (or worse give the perspective)
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    Islam is a sickening, vile and revolting set of beliefs that deserve all the criticism they can get and more. I'm not even bothered anymore about being labelled an islamophobe by people who can't tell the difference between insulting an ideology and insulting people.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    And this is the point

    Without knowing the individual and being able to cross check which bits they think are acceptable than all I can do is judge them on the ideology they choose to follow.

    But my question is why do we have to take this stance with Islam and Muslims for example but not with other hate filled ideologies (for example I have argued with racists with a wide spectrum of beliefs for example some who think black people should be killed to those who think they are OK if they stay in Africa so even they have a nuanced argument regarding their issues with race but it doesn't stop me form simply dismissing them as hate filled idiots.)

    as I said we would never argue it's OK to hate National Socialism but not individual Nazis . I once spoke to a German women whose farther was a Nazi and she said he didn't want the Jews exterminated just deported so according to the logic we are told we should apply to Muslims we should conclude he was a much better Nazi than those who wanted the Jews killed (or worse give the perspective)
    Fair point, well made.

    Will be interesting to see the counter arguments (other than my somewhat flawed attempt).
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Fair point, well made.

    Will be interesting to see the counter arguments (other than my somewhat flawed attempt).
    as I say I do struggle to get my head around this.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Islam is a sickening, vile and revolting set of beliefs that deserve all the criticism they can get and more. I'm not even bothered anymore about being labelled an islamophobe by people who can't tell the difference between insulting an ideology and insulting people.
    Do you think that it is wrong to criticise individuals on the basis of their beliefs?

    Although my initial reaction would be "yes", there are certainly arguments that this does not apply with most unacceptable beliefs. We certainly condemn white supremacists purely of the basis of their beliefs, but I'm not entirely comfortable with the implications of this approach.
    #turmoil!
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    (Original post by Dodgypirate)
    Criticising Islam in a fair and just way is fine because it's an ideology.

    Criticising Muslims, on the other hand, is wrong because they're people.
    What? How is criticising people wrong? We criticise a lot of people in our lives all the time. History is evident of it, and there is little to nothing wrong with it.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Do you think that it is wrong to criticise individuals on the basis of their beliefs?

    Although my initial reaction would be "yes", there are certainly arguments that this does not apply with most unacceptable beliefs. We certainly condemn white supremacists purely of the basis of their beliefs, but I'm not entirely comfortable with the implications of this approach.
    #turmoil!
    If what you're criticising about an individual is their beliefs then how is that any different to just criticising their beliefs/ideology?

    I could only see it as justifiable to criticise their person according to any unpleasant actions they had done, including those stemming from the belief in question.
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    I've often wondered about myself, whether I am anti Islam or anti Muslim. Difficult one, as the two are inseparable.[Islam and Muslim I mean]. But one thing I DO know for a fact and that is up until just a few years ago I never gave Muslims nor their faith a second thought. In the same way I never think about Buddhists or Shintoists. So I most certainly was not anti Muslim, or else I think it would always have been there , and for no reason. As I said on another thread a few days ago, my grandmother and her generation hated Germans. But fast forward 20 years after the end of WW2 and those feelings had gone away. People are just reacting to all this **** Muslims are causing around the world right now. When that stops the anti Muslim sentiments will stop too. And by the same token i'd imagine the anti Islam sentiments as well. Although that might be a trickier one to eradicate. I'm a 48 year old white,Christian female. I Do think discussions like this are good and healthy by the way. All sides need to be able to express their opinions in a safe environment like tsr. But I don't like the way Political Correctness can permeate discussions on here and comments censored .We live in a democracy.
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    I DO think discussions like this are good and healthy by the way. All sides need to be able to express their opinions in a safe environment like TSR. But I don't like the way Political Correctness can permeate discussions on here and comments censored. We live in a democracy.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    as I say I do struggle to get my head around this.
    (Original post by QE2)
    Do you think that it is wrong to criticise individuals on the basis of their beliefs?

    Although my initial reaction would be "yes", there are certainly arguments that this does not apply with most unacceptable beliefs. We certainly condemn white supremacists purely of the basis of their beliefs, but I'm not entirely comfortable with the implications of this approach.
    #turmoil!
    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    If what you're criticising about an individual is their beliefs then how is that any different to just criticising their beliefs/ideology?

    I could only see it as justifiable to criticise their person according to any unpleasant actions they had done, including those stemming from the belief in question.
    An easy way to resolve this turmoil would be to dismiss any fallacious, even abhorrent comparisons between Nazism/racism and Islam. By all means avoid and condemn Wahabi extremists where you see them, but I'm sure the counter-intuitiveness of any simplistic comparisons between racist ideologies and Islam is reflected in the fact that we wouldn't have a problem associating with, and even befriending the average Muslim who most likely does believe in the infallibility of the Qur'an and Muhammad, whereas the same probably wouldn't be the case with a neo-Nazi.
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    (Original post by markova21)
    I've often wondered about myself, whether I am anti Islam or anti Muslim. Difficult one, as the two are inseparable.[Islam and Muslim I mean]. But one thing I DO know for a fact and that is up until just a few years ago I never gave Muslims nor their faith a second thought. In the same way I never think about Buddhists or Shintoists. So I most certainly was not anti Muslim, or else I think it would always have been there , and for no reason. As I said on another thread a few days ago, my grandmother and her generation hated Germans. But fast forward 20 years after the end of WW2 and those feelings had gone away. People are just reacting to all this **** Muslims are causing around the world right now. When that stops the anti Muslim sentiments will stop too. And by the same token i'd imagine the anti Islam sentiments as well. Although that might be a trickier one to eradicate. I'm a 48 year old white,Christian female, BTW.
    Probably an element of truth in this.
 
 
 
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