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Muslim family kicked off plane in London after passenger complains Watch

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    (Original post by SuperHuman98)
    If America didn't interfere in the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan then the world would be a better place
    Nice bait.
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    What a time to be alive right?
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Won't be long until Muslims will be forced to wear bright yellow cresent moons stitched into their clothes by the looks of it...
    Your comparison with the yellow David stars that Jews were forced to wear under Nazi Europe is misplaced. In the 19th century, after Jews received a citizenship, they tried to completely blend into the population of their host country, by wearing western clothes, leaving the ghettos, marrying with people of other faiths, and even changing their names. The Nazis forced them to wear a star so they could be visible again, because nothing could differentiate a Jew from another citizen.

    How is it comparable with the current situation, where many Muslims wear very distinctive clothes (equivalent to a neon light saying "I am Muslim"), live in the same neighbourhoods, refuse to marry non-Muslims, and keep giving Arabic names to their children even after three generations in Western Europe?

    The main problem that most westerners have with Muslims is precisely that they want to remain as much visible as possible and refuse to "blend" with the rest of the population.
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    (Original post by Dodgypirate)
    How is it irrational?

    We're living in a real fear of terrorism... sure the passengers got it wrong in this case, but that doesn't mean it's an "irrational" fear.
    So your telling me that your scared of terrorism? Do you go out and look over both shoulders?

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    Muslim family get kicked off plane = Protest by Muslims (and associated well meaning posters) about how unfair and racist the West is.

    Multiple terrorist attacks committed by Islamists = Silence from mainstream Muslims. Multiple articles in the Guardian about how the West deserves it.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    It would be much much much better, yes.

    Notable things that the West has done (this isn't everything but just a tiny list):

    - Broke up the caliphate of the Muslims (Ottoman Empire) into tiny fragments so that they are completely disunited and ignorantly nationalistic and inward looking rather than unified and co-operative - Arabs arent even united when they speak the same language, have the same religion, the same culture and are neighbours. This is a fundamental issue which has destabilised the whole region.
    Wrong. The Ottoman Empire was in decay since at least the 18th century, but western powers agreed not to attack it because they couldn't agree on the partition. The Ottoman Empire had a strategic position, especially on the straights and no big power (UK, France, Austria and Russia) wanted any other power to control the area. So the Ottoman Empire survived until WWI, whilst it would have been conquered a century before without these strategic considerations.

    Then the fragmentation of the Arab world is a result of the colonisation by different states, not a deliberate plan. The Levant area (Syria, Irak, Lebanon, and Jordan) was however partitioned between France and the UK to avoid any kind of nationalist revolt there, but there isn't only Arabs in the area...

    Then, there were attempt to unify the Arab world under Nasser, but his United Arab Republic failed rapidly.

    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    - Help establish a Jewish state on land where they were a minority at the expense of the majority non-Jews, and subsequently supported that state. Refugees have been forced into the surrounding countries. All of Israel's subsequent actions are therefore the fault of the West, which are the numerous wars, genocide against the Palestinians, etc.
    The support for the creation of Israel wasn't unanimous among western powers. In fact, the UK abstained to vote and France only did it grudgingly. The first state to recognise Israel was the USSR...

    You shouldn't see the creation of Israel as a deliberate attempt to destabilise the region.

    I'm not commenting the "genocide against the Palestinians".
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    (Original post by Reformed)
    unfortunate consequence of UK being on heightend terror alert in relation to islamist extremism.
    please follow all instructions on planes to turn off mobile or electronic devices
    Are you out of your mind?

    I am sure you will see if you looked at my post history that I have absolutely no love lost for Islam, but when another passenger for no reason other than hate accuses people of something and the people in charge listen, you say some bs about turning off electronic devices?

    That is absolutely ridiculous mate
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    (Original post by SuperHuman98)
    Passenger should be fined for time wasting
    At the very least.

    I would have thought they even have a good case for slander in a civil suit.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Nope, it is a valid comparison because history is somewhat repeating itself whereby one religious group is being demonised by the public, the media and the government, and increasingly being targeted by laws and programs.
    The circumstances are quite different. Prior to the Nazi's, when Germany was still under the Weimar Republic, the sanctions placed upon Germany were rather large, and the German economy had taken a downturn and was suffering from hyperinflation. At the same time though, Jewish people were, despite being a small demographic, largely influential on matters regarding the economy. To quote from 'Antisemitism: Myth and Hate from Antiquity to Present' by Marvin Perry and Frederick Schweitzer:

    In independent Hungary in 1930, a Jewish population of 5.1 percent accounted for 34.4 percent of doctors, 49.1 percent of lawyers, 45.1 percent of pharmacists, 31.7 percent of journalists, 28.9 percent of musicians, 24.1 percent of actors, and stood at the “commanding heights” of banking, trade, and industry, so that a fifth to a quarter of the national wealth was “Jewish."
    Muslims as a demographic do not hold anywhere near as much influence over the economy and political scene in the UK. According to the Guardian, 0.4% of journalists are Muslim. So whilst people could argue that "the Jews control the media", nobody could make that argument towards Muslims. Muslims would actually be in the complete opposite situation of being underrepresented as opposed to overrepresented.

    The same has happened to over groups who have been overrepresented in the economy. The Chinese of Indonesia (and Southeast Asia in general) have been overrepresented in many trades and many of the wealthiest people in Indonesia were Chinese. When the economic downturn came in 1997, it was the Chinese who were used as the scapegoat. There has been a long history of pogroms against the Chinese in Indonesia. The case is very similar for the Indians in East Africa who despite being a minority group, were overrepresented in most areas of the economy and who were forcefully kicked out of Uganda by Idi Amin Dada.

    A far better comparison for Muslims would be the Romani people who have historically been underrepresented in all aspects of the economy and politics, who are often blamed for issues involving crime and who are often segregated and forced to live in ghettos. Search Chanov on google images to see an example of Romani segregation.

    The obvious difference between my views and the UK is that it claims to be an open, secular and free society whereby no one individual group should be targeted and singled out, yet it does this; on the other hand, my socially conservative views have specific implications which could be restrictive at times but I do not claim that I represent freedom and secularism. Whether or not you believe that to be me hypocritically enjoying an aspect of British life which would not exist in the same way in a state run by my views doesn't change the values of the UK stands for.
    The UK isn't completely secular. We have a load of bishops sitting in the house of Lords.

    I have explained to you numerous times that claiming something is 'sectarianism' doesn't actually mean anything. You need to define: what actually constitutes sectarianism? You keep spouting that word to try to silence people or make them appear bigoted, but an academic critical appraisal of someone's beliefs does not constitute bigotry (as you often claim when people say you are Islamphobic), and therefore a rejection of ideas or beliefs does not constitute the kind of 'sectarianism' which you allude to, thus the ISOC has nothing to stand against in that regard. When it comes to people being bigoted and/or insulting people or beliefs, the ISOC has always stood against that form of sectarianism.
    This answer I have given is a correct and valid assessment of the situation, therefore it does not deserve scorn; however because you have your own personal agenda which you make no secret of, you will continue to argue anyway, thus we are at an impasse.
    Religious societies on TSR are meant to be non-sectarian, that is, open to all sects. Although individual sects are free to make their own threads dedicated to their sect (eg Catholic society). If you wish to debate about whether Ahmadi's are Muslim or not, that should take place in a debate forum and you are more than free to do that, and I would defend your right to do so. But within a society which is supposed to be inclusive and open to all Muslims, comments declaring others are not Muslims (which you have done) are not acceptable. I can quote some members of the CT in if you want clarification here as to TSR's stance on this matter.
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    (Original post by Reue)
    They were taken off and questioned because someone reported that they were looking at illegal isis material on their phone. The police questioned them and then allowed them back on the plane.

    If someone had reported a passenger was looking at illegal child porn on their phone you would expect the exact same response.

    Seems like an entirely reasonable reaction by the airline and police.*
    Fine. Let's use your example.

    How would you feel if someone on a plane told the flight attendant that you were watching child porn.

    1. I am not sure the plane would have been kept waiting.

    2. How would you feel if you were treated like that? Your time wasted, you interrogated? You coming back on the plane to looks of people?

    3. All that just because some ******* doesn't like that you are wearing a headscarf. So in your case say you are a Gunners fan with a jersey and the guy saying that was a Spurs fan.
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    (Original post by Josb)
    Wrong. The Ottoman Empire was in decay since at least the 18th century, but western powers agreed not to attack it because they couldn't agree on the partition. The Ottoman Empire had a strategic position, especially on the straights and no big power (UK, France, Austria and Russia) wanted any other power to control the area. So the Ottoman Empire survived until WWI, whilst it would have been conquered a century before without these strategic considerations.

    Then the fragmentation of the Arab world is a result of the colonisation by different states, not a deliberate plan. The Levant area (Syria, Irak, Lebanon, and Jordan) was however partitioned between France and the UK to avoid any kind of nationalist revolt there, but there isn't only Arabs in the area...
    Muslims actually played a very important role in helping to overthrow the Ottomans. Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab provided the Islamic justification for overthrowing the Ottoman empire, accusing them of bidah. He has also been incredibly influential and provided the foundations for Salafi Islam.
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    While there's always going to be a heavy dose of Outcome Bias in situations like this, I do feel sorry them for getting treated like this. Although, (in my opinion) they follow an out dated & unnecessarily restrictive religion, just reading some Arabic material on an airliner to me isn't a good enough reason to suspect them of terrorism & then remove then from it for questioning.
    At the end of the day, we've got to trust the police, security services & airline security teams to do their jobs; so far they seem to be doing sterling work as there's be no successful attacks on UK based airliners since 9/11.
    I do think that vigilant passengers do have a role to play seeing as it's partly due to passenger action that the December 2001 "shoebomber" and the December 2009 "underwear bomber" but it's totally counter productive & unfair to assess any Muslim on your flight as a terrorist.
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    As a white Christian/ atheist I have to spend ages in airport security. Everyone knows that my demographic is unlikely to blow up an airplane.

    Can I play the "victim" card as well?
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    (Original post by Dodgypirate)
    How is it irrational?

    We're living in a real fear of terrorism... sure the passengers got it wrong in this case, but that doesn't mean it's an "irrational" fear.
    The irrationality is the irrational fear of ALL MUSLIMS and assuming that any slightly suspicious activity from any Muslim is instantly a terror threat.

    Stop trying to justify what is blatant discrimination.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Stop trying to justify what is blatant discrimination.
    Well, it could be hypervigilance/paranoia brought on by mental illness.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    Fine. Let's use your example.

    How would you feel if someone on a plane told the flight attendant that you were watching child porn.

    1. I am not sure the plane would have been kept waiting.

    2. How would you feel if you were treated like that? Your time wasted, you interrogated? You coming back on the plane to looks of people?

    3. All that just because some ******* doesn't like that you are wearing a headscarf. So in your case say you are a Gunners fan with a jersey and the guy saying that was a Spurs fan.
    I'd be more annoyed if the police didn't investigate such claims.*
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    (Original post by Dez)
    It's sad when people allow themselves to be ruled by irrational fear.
    It's sadder still, and frightening itself, when governments make policy based on that fear.

    (Original post by Dodgypirate)
    How is it irrational?

    We're living in a real fear of terrorism... sure the passengers got it wrong in this case, but that doesn't mean it's an "irrational" fear.
    Of course it's irrational. It may be understandable - although heaven knows I'm having trouble even with that in this case - but it's in no way rational.

    It's not even rational to fear terrorism in general, given how unlikely it is that you will be caught up in an attack. What it is is understandable.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Islamaphobia is on the rise, people becoming more ignorant and right wing, prejudice and profiling increasing, anti-Muslim programs e.g. Prevent are being introduced...

    Won't be long until Muslims will be forced to wear bright yellow cresent moons stitched into their clothes by the looks of it...
    The word phobia is used to describe irrational fears, regardless of whether you are talking about medical-phobias and or social-phobias. An irrational fear would be that of homosexuals. A "fear" of Islam is by the very virtues of common sense, education and a basic understanding of facts and reasoning not irrational and can therefor not objectively be applied to a fear of extreme right-wing ideologies like Islam.

    Glad I could help clear up that confusion.
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    (Original post by Galaxie501)
    The word phobia is used to describe irrational fears, regardless of whether you are talking about medical-phobias and or social-phobias. An irrational fear would be that of homosexuals. A "fear" of Islam is by the very virtues of common sense, education and a basic understanding of facts and reasoning not irrational and can therefor not objectively be applied to a fear of extreme right-wing ideologies like Islam.

    Glad I could help clear up that confusion.
    Islamophobia covers fear of Muslims or Islam

    a fear of Muslims is completely unjustified and discriminatory, a fear of Islam is somewhat acceptable but stupid anyway - most people who actually fear Islam haven't even been to high percentage (ie 95%+) communities in remote parts of the world like India, Indonesia, etc, they do not run out with meat cleavers and try to behead non-believers on sight, lol
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Islamaphobia is on the rise, people becoming more ignorant and right wing, prejudice and profiling increasing, anti-Muslim programs e.g. Prevent are being introduced...
    As a direct consequence of increasing Islamist attacks, and increased knowledge of when Islamic ideology actually contains. Plus the refusal of many Muslims to acknowledge such things and take them into account.

    Won't be long until Muslims will be forced to wear bright yellow cresent moons stitched into their clothes by the looks of it...
    Au contraire, public opinion seems to be against unnecessary public displays of religiosity. It's only Muslims who insist on publicly identifying themselves as Muslims.

    Why is it so important for some Muslims to make sure that everyone else knows that they are Muslims? Is it a competition between Muslims to see who can be the Muslimest?

    Considering that Allah knows what is in your heart, and he warns against ostentatious displays of piety, it all seems a bit pointless, doesn't it? A bit "Look at me, I'm a Muslim!". Which, given the current climate, seems a bit deliberately provocative.

    If I was a Tory supporter, I wouldn't walk through a Northern coal town with a flag saying "I'm a Tory and I approve of Tory policies", even though I had never personally closed down a coal mine.
 
 
 
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