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Labour Leadership Contest 2016 Watch

  • View Poll Results: Who would you vote for - Jeremy Corbyn or Owen Smith?
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Smith , but I've reached the point where I don't care anymore. I think the Labour Party died a long time ago and that's probably for the best. Corbyn is useless, disingenuous and highly warped wheras Smith is merely dull and slightly pathetic.

    Mean while the liberal democrats remain hopeless and tainted beyond measure, probably unfairly but that's politics.

    This May government is perhaps the most passionless, cynical government in history with a collection of very dodgy, individuals who see brexit as a wonderful opportunity to sell missiles to despots.

    I think the real opposition will be from those conservatives with some form of conscience. In any case they see the only party that is seriously interested in governing and for the most part has its loonies in check.



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    Rakas21
    KimKallstrom
    I agree, except for the Brexit part. BAE Systems m were selling arms already and they're a private entity anyway.*

    Did you watch the Question Time Labour Leadership debate? If so, what did you think? I made it 10 minutes before I had to stop as it was that cringe-worthy. Both candidates and also the audience were too much.*
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    While i do imagine there are some proper toffs who think that rich people know best and the poor should be kept in their place i don't think Cameron or Osbourne were ever guilty of that. Politically Cameron was a mild Thatcherite and pretty pragmatic and i do think that although he never understood poverty (this was Osbourne's main problem), i do think that both genuinely did want to make the country a better place.

    Other than May (her focus on merit stems from her background - middle class daughter of a vicar done good) i think people will be surprised how little the change in background across the cabinet will change things.

    Personally i would like to see Gove, Osbourne and Crabb come back.
    I didn't realise Crabb had gone, surprising really considering he'd barely been in the job 5 minutes.

    I think re Osbourne, he was Cameron's right hand man and the face of austerity so to speak(and never got any projections right), so it makes sense to start the new regime with a clean slate IMO.

    Gove proved himself to be completely untrustworthy after trying to snipe the leadership from Boris after ruling himself out.
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    I agree, except for the Brexit part. BAE Systems m were selling arms already and they're a private entity anyway.*

    Did you watch the Question Time Labour Leadership debate? If so, what did you think? I made it 10 minutes before I had to stop as it was that cringe-worthy. Both candidates and also the audience were too much.*
    Neither are particularly inspiring but I think Smith can at least stave off oblivion in 2020. And he's had a real job.

    The best man for the job IMO is currently running a charity in New York.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    I didn't realise Crabb had gone, surprising really considering he'd barely been in the job 5 minutes.

    I think re Osbourne, he was Cameron's right hand man and the face of austerity so to speak(and never got any projections right), so it makes sense to start the new regime with a clean slate IMO.

    Gove proved himself to be completely untrustworthy after trying to snipe the leadership from Boris after ruling himself out.
    He was having an affair so hopefully May got rid of him to stop that becoming a thing rather than because she thought him useless.

    While true, he had some very good ideas like the Northern powerhouse and to be fair, the OBR is independent.

    As seen on TSR most of the people who think him bad for it were Boris supporters and most who supported Gove were only supporting Boris because it looked like a joint ticket. Unfortunately though, it looks like 'Macbeth' (as Salmond called him - piling up the Bullingdon boys) was seen as too ruthless and perhaps not to be trusted by the membership at large (approval went from 60% to 20% in a week).

    (Original post by JamesN88)
    Neither are particularly inspiring but I think Smith can at least stave off oblivion in 2020. And he's had a real job.

    The best man for the job IMO is currently running a charity in New York.
    It's interesting that so many people think David Miliband should have been leader when he's so openly Blairite (something that even those who want Corbyn gone don't support).

    He's still young though.
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    Rakas21


    Oh right I didn't know Crabb was having an affair, you don't need any whiff of scandal hanging around unnecessarily when you can just return him to the backbenches. That's not
    very devout Christianly of him though, lol.
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    I agree, except for the Brexit part. BAE Systems m were selling arms already and they're a private entity anyway.*
    Sure we were doing it pre brexit but I think outside the EU the government are going to be even more keen- Liam Fox in particular but Hammond and Boris are also keen.

    Did you watch the Question Time Labour Leadership debate? If so, what did you think? I made it 10 minutes before I had to stop as it was that cringe-worthy. Both candidates and also the audience were too much.*
    No because I knew it would be painful. Just mass virtue signalling and saying the word social justice in every sentence.

    Wish there had been one got the Tories and we could see them knock the **** out of each other.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    Rakas21


    Oh right I didn't know Crabb was having an affair, you don't need any whiff of scandal hanging around unnecessarily when you can just return him to the backbenches. That's not
    very devout Christianly of him though, lol.
    Every time people talk about the sanctity of marriage none times out of ten they either beat or cheat on their spouses - just like these anti gay types always end up being a Keith Vaz
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Every time people talk about the sanctity of marriage none times out of ten they either beat or cheat on their spouses - just like these anti gay types always end up being a Keith Vaz
    Ha, yeah. Like the anti-gambling senators who are caught in Vegas.

    I actually quite liked the guy and though i'd have liked to see more policy from him i thought his background and general narrative would have been brilliant (though May's is pretty good).
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Ha, yeah. Like the anti-gambling senators who are caught in Vegas.

    I actually quite liked the guy and though i'd have liked to see more policy from him i thought his background and general narrative would have been brilliant (though May's is pretty good).
    Apparently he's homophobic as hell too and has tried to bury he fact he supported one if those gay cureing religious groups too. (I only mention because I remember you didn't like Hammonds incest comment).

    May has regardless of narrative, absolutely no charisma or any real idea of what she should be doing other than trying to balance limiting immigration with not screwing the economy.

    Her Rasputin esque advisers biggest priority at the moment is trying to create more faith schools- which I sincerely hope never sees the light of day and we've got a trade secretary who thinks calling business leaders a bunch of fat lazy tossers is going to boost our exports abroad...
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Apparently he's homophobic as hell too and has tried to bury he fact he supported one if those gay cureing religious groups too. (I only mention because I remember you didn't like Hammonds incest comment).

    May has regardless of narrative, absolutely no charisma or any real idea of what she should be doing other than trying to balance limiting immigration with not screwing the economy.

    Her Rasputin esque advisers biggest priority at the moment is trying to create more faith schools- which I sincerely hope never sees the light of day and we've got a trade secretary who thinks calling business leaders a bunch of fat lazy tossers is going to boost our exports abroad...
    Ha. Having read the Times today i think the media have chosen to ignore the context in their headlines. His argument (and one i agree with) is that many firms are not ready to take advantage of the opportunities available to them regarding exports around the world because they see exporting as a niche rather than the norm. He rightly pointed out that the establishment is somewhat to blame here because for so long it has lacked an economy orientated world view.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Ha. Having read the Times today i think the media have chosen to ignore the context in their headlines. His argument (and one i agree with) is that many firms are not ready to take advantage of the opportunities available to them regarding exports around the world because they see exporting as a niche rather than the norm. He rightly pointed out that the establishment is somewhat to blame here because for so long it has lacked an economy orientated world view.
    I quite liked this take on it:

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2016/09/fox-must-set-trade-free-not-coerce-business.html
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    I'm not talking about him calling Hamas friends(questionable though that is) but rather him praising them for their contribution to peace and social justice, if he doesn't support them he's a fool given what's in their charter. Either way it makes him unfit to lead the country.

    Re the hard left, the current abusive environment within the Labour Party wasn't there before he was elected leader and Labour's ranks were swelled by them.
    Well said, dude. Those words of his, praising their dedication to "peace and social justice", puts the lie to his dishonest excuses after the fact claiming he was merely being diplomatic.

    And even if that excuse were true, why does he feel the need to kiss their butt so much? Unfortunately Corbyn has always shown a kind of desperate, fan-girlish delight in being in the company of men with guns (as long as the guns are pointed at the West or at Jews... if the men with guns are British soldiers or police, they are to be despised)

    And you're spot on regarding the abusive atmosphere. Before Corbyn's cultists entered the party en masse, we simply did not have the level of abuse, threats and bigotry that we see now. Modern politics is all about building coalitions of interests, alliances between different groups (for example, in Labour, the coalition was traditionally between the working-class and the educated middle-class, while the Tories were an alliance between the upper-class, business, conservative middle-class people and the lower-middle class). But the Corbynites cannot see anything in such terms; for them, if you don't agree with them 100% then you are a filthy, red Tory traitor. They don't realise that behaving like this they are completely alienating the people they would need to win an election. Then again, they've shown precious little interest in such "impure" pursuits as, you know, winning power so that you can implement as left-wing agenda.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Apparently he's homophobic as hell too and has tried to bury he fact he supported one if those gay cureing religious groups too. (I only mention because I remember you didn't like Hammonds incest comment).
    I haven't seen anything along that lines, though it would certainly be interesting in the context of his dubious relationship with that young man Adam Werritty (though if I were a cabinet minister I'd find a much hotter guy to hook up with)

    we've got a trade secretary who thinks calling business leaders a bunch of fat lazy tossers is going to boost our exports abroad...
    Someone posted some figures on Twitter showing the UK exports $12,000 US per capita, which is only less than Germany and Canada. We export significantly more (like double) per capita than the US or Japan
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    AlexanderHam


    It's the mass alienation that defies belief.

    He's alienated the Military and anyone in any connected industry with his views.

    He's alienated people in rural areas(not a traditional Labour stronghold at the best of times) by appointing a militant vegan as shadow DEFRA secretary.

    The day after the Brexit vote, rather than acknowledging people's concerns about immigration he said they just didn't understand diversity(i.e implying they're stupid).

    Two days after Traingate he calls a press conference about the NHS and then kicks off when they question him about the elephant in the room.

    For the Party's sake he either needs to employ a PR team or fire the one he's already got and get someone with real world experience.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    AlexanderHam

    It's the mass alienation that defies belief.
    Absolutely, 100%. He's incredibly oblivious and ham-fisted, he lacks anything resembling good judgment or the ability to persuade and win people over. He doesn't have conversations with people; he just speaks at them, lecturing them and adopting this sort of tired, annoyed airs that implies anyone who doesn't agree with him must not understand his position, rather than just that they do not agree with it.

    Check out this short video from 10 seconds to 26 seconds. Notice when he says the "public ownership" bit. He comes across as a massive ****, totally patronising like he's talking to people who are too stupid to understand.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP7xBYu5JX0

    The irony is that Corbyn is undoubtedly among the least intelligent MPs in the Labour Party. He really is not that bright, but he is utterly convinced of his own brilliance. Dunning-Kruger effect in action.

    For the Party's sake he either needs to employ a PR team or fire the one he's already got and get someone with real world experience.
    Nothing Corbyn could do would mitigate that he simply lacks the intelligence, the charm, the leadership ability and even basic work ethic, to succeed as leader of the opposition. On the work ethic issue, he gave an interview where he said he regularly just leaves the office and switches his phone off, because that means it becomes someone else's problem and they deal with it. He said the fact they deal with it means they didn't really need him in the first place.

    Also, he was unreachable during traingate because he was "making jam". What's worse is that his cult supporters actually made a virtue of that, that it proves he's a "normal person", rather than a lazy sod who gets away with skiving off work in a manner that would get a normal person sacked.

    Corbyn has to go, PR won't help; it would just be putting lipstick on a very overweight, smelly pig
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)

    Corbyn has to go, PR won't help; it would just be putting lipstick on a very overweight, smelly pig
    :laugh:

    Yeah you're right, you can't polish a turd.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    . Modern politics is all about building coalitions of interests, alliances between different groups (for example, in Labour, the coalition was traditionally between the working-class and the educated middle-class, while the Tories were an alliance between the upper-class, business, conservative middle-class people and the lower-middle class). But the Corbynites cannot see anything in such terms; for them, if you don't agree with them 100% then you are a filthy, red Tory traitor. They don't realise that behaving like this they are completely alienating the people they would need to win an election. Then again, they've shown precious little interest in such "impure" pursuits as, you know, winning power so that you can implement as left-wing agenda.
    I'm more on the Social Democrat end of the Labour scale but I certainly don't view Socialists as enemies. Despite my differing views I also have a lot of respect for Militant for them taking on Thatcher.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    I'm more on the Social Democrat end of the Labour scale but I certainly don't view Socialists as enemies. Despite my differing views I also have a lot of respect for Militant for them taking on Thatcher.
    I can't say I agree viz. Militant. They were an entryist organisation whose fundamental objective was to undermine and take over the Labour Party and move it away from social democratic and moderate socialist policies and enact an ideology (Trotskyism / revolutionary socialism) that is fundamentally alien to Labour traditions, to social democratic politics and to democratic norms period. I don't see how they "took on Thatcher", they spent more time attacking other people in the Labour Party.

    Just as Tony Benn and his fellow travellers like Jeremy Corbyn spent most of the 1980s attacking their colleagues and destabilising the party. It was their actions that led to the SDP split and thus prevented Labour from actually "taking on Thatcher" by defeating her in an election and reversing her policies. What Militant and the Bennites did was pure self-indulgence, not genuine political activity that would lead to a change of government (which is the only true way of "opposing" the Tories; futile protest marches and fringe meetings passing endless resolutions is more like political masturbation)

    I'd really encourage you to check out this excellent documentary about Labour in the 1980s, this episode I'm posting is about the Tony Benn and Militant issues in the party. I think it gives you a very good sense of just how obnoxious and self-absorbed Tony Benn was, and how Labour giants like Denis Healey were unfairly attacked ensuring more Labour infighting.

    A good example of Corbynite/Bennite hypocrisy is that today he cites his mandate as why all MPs should get in line and shut up, he keeps pointing out his "massive" mandate. In reality, his 57% is not particularly exceptional either in percentage terms or absolute votes. Tony Blair got 250,000 more votes than Corbyn did in his election. And John Smith got 92% of the vote in the leadership election. And yet two months after John Smith got that 92%, Corbyn started calling for a leadership challenge. This is what the hard left of the party did consistently throughout the 1980s, justifying it on the basis they were "creating a debate". In reality they ****ed the party and condemned it to years in the wilderness.

    Anyway, here's the documentary

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    AlexanderHam


    I should have added "in Liverpool" onto the end of that sentence which is what I meant.

    I know the overall environment wasn't constructive(to put it mildly).
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    AlexanderHam

    I should have added "in Liverpool" onto the end of that sentence which is what I meant.

    I know the overall environment wasn't constructive(to put it mildly).
    I wouldn't even agree with that in Liverpool. Derek Hatton and Militant did some absolutely abominable things in Liverpool, and in particular their policies led to the redundancy of many council workers who unnecessarily lost their jobs. It's an acme example of rigid ideology and dogma leading to harm of the people they claim to represent.

    Anyways I'm going to head off to bed, please do watch the documentary when you have a chance. It is fascinating if you're interested in British political history and the history of the Labour Party
 
 
 
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