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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Well, frankly, that's both a cop out and wrong. Having rules implies a rule giver. Strict rules cannot form and sustain themselves out of chaos, and if you believe they can this is as much an act of faith as anny religious teaching.

    It's a cop out because all of contemporary astronomy points towards a beginning of the universe a finite time ago (Big Bang, Second Law of Thermodynamics). There are also philosophical reasons for belieing the universe's past is infinite which I can explain if you want.
    Natural law and "rules" as we know them are not the same. A rule giver is not implied, that is a fallacy. **** man, we are here to discuss, go ahead. The problem with going into that reasoning is again, there is no objective proof that being true, and hence, I cannot bring myself to believe it.
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Alright, but I just wish most militant atheists were a little less strident when inciting hatred of religion given that their own ideology is so dark. Humans no better than animals, with no purpose or value. I see no improvement over religion here.
    Yeah, honestly, most atheists are total dicks and don't want to simply discuss. I hate them as much as you do (even though you might think I'm being one right now).
    It is dark dude, I see your point. I was brought up Christian, and when I realised I couldn't bring myself to believe in an afterlife I ****ing cried my eyes out every night imaging what death is like, but for me it's about enjoying life, and making the most of it. Religion is great for bringing people together, and inspiring hope, which is what it did in history (even though now it is getting way too authoritarian and out of hand, only with ISIS I suppose). I think we have reached a time now where we don't need religion like we did. It was used in the west to set the grounds of our morality sure, most of which must have come from the human conscience (you do see similar morality in animals, which I'm guessing have not been "enlightened" by God). If you don't want to deal with the depressing chance (dare I say fact?) that we have no purpose, and we rot into the ground when we die, then you don't have to, you can enjoy your life believing what you want (as long as you don't shoe horn your beliefs onto other people), what should I give a **** if it makes you more happy?
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    (Original post by CervixPounder)
    Natural law and "rules" as we know them are not the same. A rule giver is not implied, that is a fallacy. **** man, we are here to discuss, go ahead. The problem with going into that reasoning is again, there is no objective proof that being true, and hence, I cannot bring myself to believe it.
    In my opinion a rule giver is implied - not proven, but implied. This is due to the extreme unlikelihood of such perfect rules, which are so regular and cooperate so smoothly with mathematics (even mathematics formulated prior to our knowledge of its physical application).

    There are a few philosophical explanations given against an infinite past. Here's one to do with the impossibility of traversing (crossing) an infinite sequence of events one at a time. Imagine a row of dominoes lined up. Each domino represents an event (all the events that have ever happened together make up the whole of our past). The domino at the front is the present, where we are, so for us to be in the present that domino needs to be knocked over. Trouble is, if the past is infinite, there is an infinite number of dominoes that need to be knocked over before the one at the front is. No matter where you start knocking over the dominoes, there's an infinite number of dominoes before it that need knocking over. In other words, you'll keep getting dragged back into the past and never reach the present - the final domino will never fall. And yet here we are. If we are in the present, then an infinite sequence of events cannot have happened before us, so the past is not infinite.
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    In my opinion a rule giver is implied - not proven, but implied. This is due to the extreme unlikelihood of such perfect rules, which are so regular and cooperate so smoothly with mathematics (even mathematics formulated prior to our knowledge of its physical application).

    There are a few philosophical explanations given against an infinite past. Here's one to do with the impossibility of traversing (crossing) an infinite sequence of events one at a time. Imagine a row of dominoes lined up. Each domino represents an event (all the events that have ever happened together make up the whole of our past). The domino at the front is the present, where we are, so for us to be in the present that domino needs to be knocked over. Trouble is, if the past is infinite, there is an infinite number of dominoes that need to be knocked over before the one at the front is. No matter where you start knocking over the dominoes, there's an infinite number of dominoes before it that need knocking over. In other words, you'll keep getting dragged back into the past and never reach the present - the final domino will never fall. And yet here we are. If we are in the present, then an infinite sequence of events cannot have happened before us, so the past is not infinite.
    The Big Bang from my understanding **is** the beginning of time (and space), but again, we just simply do not know what was before that. A possible "explanation" I have heard is that the start of the universe is a simple truth we must accept and not question, although, that seems to go against the whole scientific method.Can you give me an example of some of the rules that fit perfectly with mathematics? I'm pretty sure that the mathematics is determined and inherent to natural law, although, mathematics doesn't have to follow the rules of the physical universe, because it can be theoretical (such as the idea of infinity). It is a common thing to question that "gaps" that Science and Physics has in explanations about the universe, but when we do discover a solution, most people jump on board. For example, the majority of western religious people accept that evolution, and the big bang are true, but think that it was "guided by god".
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    (Original post by CervixPounder)
    Yeah, honestly, most atheists are total dicks and don't want to simply discuss. I hate them as much as you do (even though you might think I'm being one right now).
    It is dark dude, I see your point. I was brought up Christian, and when I realised I couldn't bring myself to believe in an afterlife I ****ing cried my eyes out every night imaging what death is like, but for me it's about enjoying life, and making the most of it. Religion is great for bringing people together, and inspiring hope, which is what it did in history (even though now it is getting way too authoritarian and out of hand, only with ISIS I suppose). I think we have reached a time now where we don't need religion like we did. It was used in the west to set the grounds of our morality sure, most of which must have come from the human conscience (you do see similar morality in animals, which I'm guessing have not been "enlightened" by God). If you don't want to deal with the depressing chance (dare I say fact?) that we have no purpose, and we rot into the ground when we die, then you don't have to, you can enjoy your life believing what you want (as long as you don't shoe horn your beliefs onto other people), what should I give a **** if it makes you more happy?
    I definitely agree with your live and let live attitude. I don't want to shove religion on anyone, I just want people to hear its perspective, by having conversations like this partly, because I think it can do the world a lot of good, regardless of whether God exists or not. This is especially true in the west. Everyone's always complaining our society's broken. Didn't Christ tell us to protect the poor? Teenage mental disorders at an all time high. Doesn't the church teach that we shouldn't worry about how we look until we're older and want to marry, hence removing this pressure on young people? Aren't divorce rates at an all time high? That's an obvious one I suppose
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    I definitely agree with your live and let live attitude. I don't want to shove religion on anyone, I just want people to hear its perspective, by having conversations like this partly, because I think it can do the world a lot of good, regardless of whether God exists or not. This is especially true in the west. Everyone's always complaining our society's broken. Didn't Christ tell us to protect the poor? Teenage mental disorders at an all time high. Doesn't the church teach that we shouldn't worry about how we look until we're older and want to marry, hence removing this pressure on young people? Aren't divorce rates at an all time high? That's an obvious one I suppose
    This is all true, and I guess religion is a possible solution, but again, we can refer back to ourselves to what is moral, and the teachings of Christ and other deities can, as you just have, be put into normal non-religious contexts. The thing I'm afraid of however, is how religion can do very bad things, the obvious examples are obvious. And also hold us back from advancing as a society. Hell, even western morals are holding us back from scientific advances that the Chinese are making into genetic engineering.
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    (Original post by CervixPounder)
    This is all true, and I guess religion is a possible solution, but again, we can refer back to ourselves to what is moral, and the teachings of Christ and other deities can, as you just have, be put into normal non-religious contexts. The thing I'm afraid of however, is how religion can do very bad things, the obvious examples are obvious. And also hold us back from advancing as a society. Hell, even western morals are holding us back from scientific advances that the Chinese are making into genetic engineering.
    Good points


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