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    (Original post by Wōden)
    London is more on route to becoming the Khanate of Londonistan than the Republic of Londonia.
    True. We do need to be careful, if Muslim growth rates (both birth and immigration) continue on their present course, within a few generations they would be fully a quarter of the population. And with that number of people, they could easily form an Islamist party with great clout in parliament, which would demand ever greater concessions.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    True. We do need to be careful, if Muslim growth rates (both birth and immigration) continue on their present course, within a few generations they would be fully a quarter of the population. And with that number of people, they could easily form an Islamist party with great clout in parliament, which would demand ever greater concessions.
    LOL every thread details into Islam somehow
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    (Original post by Buonaparte)
    The UK needs London more than London needs the UK, but I don't think independence is a plausible idea, at least not in the near future.

    Well, that would be a nice idea, if we had a government that actually cared about cracking down on tax evasion and avoidance.
    I think a system of annual tributes by the republic would be one way to deal with it; instead of trying to chase all these companies and constantly trying to close loopholes their clever lawyers and accountants find, or construe, in the legislation, instead the city could simply be assessed for a certain annual tribute (in the tens of billions) and then the city and its merchants and guilds would agree among themselves how to come up with the cash
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    I found this if anyone is interested .
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    There is nothing special about London. The way London gets rich is by inflating the whole of the UK's housing market though mortgages and then cashing in every 7 to 15 years during a market crash when hundreds of foreclosures and repossessions happen over all 4 corners of the United Kingdom. It is a complete carpet bagger racket.

    You also need to include that private banks can print money at will and they use this money to gamble on the stock market while their losses pile up as financial debt with the tax payer & public held responsible in the form of inflation on goods, services and bail outs when cry baby capitalists come home to roost.

    I'm all for London Independence but it should come at the cost of every bank in Britain loosing the right to print currency at will and a end to fiat currency with a return to the Gold standard of the Pound Stirling.
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    (Original post by Wōden)
    Yes, I do.
    So how does a word which simply means 'Kingdom' in Mongolic/Turkic languages relate to London?

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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    It's not wholly serious, but I think it is a good vehicle through which to discuss how to increase London's prosperity and consider alternative forms of governance.

    Regarding an old idea; guilty as charged. I believe London would do well to emulate that ancient and noble republic La Serenissima, the Venetians. I wouldn't advocate a closed-system oligarchy; anyone could join the ranks of the London patricians as part of a great council of the city. I would suggest up to 1,000 members of great individual merit or as representatives of their respective guilds or professions. It would be a meritocratic oligarchy.
    So something like Hong Kong's current system, then?
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    It's a great idea. Then y'all can stop carping about subsidizing everyone with your genius and get on with your pseudo sophisticated lives.
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    A *******s idea. people have too much spare time to think of **** like that. London never was independent nor is culturally distinct, and it relies on many workers from outside London to prop it up. London only is as it is since the Queen lives there, the West End, the City, and the sights/museums. I'd argue London needs the UK more than the UK needs London, since it's not as if all those City workers live in London, or don't commute......
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    (Original post by Buonaparte)
    The UK needs London more than London needs the UK, but I don't think independence is a plausible idea, at least not in the near future.
    .

    Hahaha. Currency specualtion, hedge funds, elling property to dodgy foreginers,a nd making nothing, with white people being wiped out and even more ineqaultiy than the UK as a whole, where it is chronic.

    London will become Latin America with Muslim politics attached and it's populace is stupid enough to vote for it.

    Of course they would bleat about the ghastly provincials and how brilliant they were and then cadge themselves a deal that got them subsidized, while making out they subsidize others. Still be screwed though, but happy if they didn't know any better..
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    I just got back from a week in Venice, which was absolutely marvellous. This post will be about Londonian independence, but I will get there circuitously via Venetian history. It's a long post so put the kettle on, or click the back button or something.

    Anyway, re Venice... As if it wasn't cool enough that the city has no cars and its main streets are water instead, the city also has an incredible history. The city was founded in 421 AD by refugees who were fleeing from barbarians on the mainland; they went out into the Venetian lagoon and settled on a group of marshy, salty, flood-prone islands.

    From 421 until 1798, the Venetians developed their society such that they were completely oriented toward the sea and to trading. They had their own dialect of Italian and in many ways considered themselves to be more a part of Byzantium (whose nominal vassal they were) than a part of Italian polities. The Venetians had trading interests that spread from the Adriatic and Italy through to the Eastern Mediterranean (Turkey, Palestine, Egypt) and far beyond. They traded with the Mongols and with China, and in the 1300s they even had a resident trade envoy in Thailand, at a time when most Europeans knew nothing about what was east of the Levant

    The Venetians became a merchant republic, with a very unique and singular sort of national pride in their characteristics; "We are a sea people, not a land people". There's little doubt the Venetians were the greatest seafaring race until the rise of the British Empire.

    Their republic, called the Serene Republic (or La Serenissima), was headed by an elected monarch called the Doge (pronounced "daw-jay". However, he was mainly a figurehead and power was held by a group of legislatures and councils. They had incredibly strict rules to prevent anyone from becoming a despot or to have too much power to acrrue in the hands of any person or family.

    They had a patrician nobility, however these were not feudal landlords but a nobility of the greatest merchant families. The Venetians had great pride in their constitution; although their political system was quite oligarchical (the main plenary body was the Great Council, a body with about 1,500 members of all the male members of the greatest trading families), the Venetian nobility ruled in a very selfless manner and always in the interests of the republic. They ruthlessly stamped out any corruption and the great pride of the Venetians in their constitution, and their pride in their uniqueness, meant the nobility had instilled in them from birth that they had to always act in the best interests of the republic. To ensure that doge elections could not be stitched up, they made it extremely complex;



    Anyway, having been immersed in their history for the last week, I have wondered whether we might consider Londonian independence. The City of London is politically constituted in a way that is closest to La Serenissima of any in existence today; it is a sort of oligarchical merchant polity (in the City of London, 80% of votes are held by corporations and only 20% by residents). They also have a very complex system of guilds, councils, and elections (if you want to see an awesome short video on it, see here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1ROpIKZe-c)

    I was thinking, maybe London (not just the City, but the whole metropolis) could also become an oligarchical merchant republic? The United Kingdom would cede the metropolis of London to the City, and allow it to become a republic headed by a Lord Mayor who would be an elective monarch for life (but they would have to have a minimum age of 70 so they wouldn't live too long, and would also be wise). The Republic of Londonia would still be under the suzerainty of the British crown, and in exchange for the granting of our independence, and in consideration of Londonia's vassalage, we would would pay an annual tribute of perhaps £30 billion to £40 billion. The United Kingdom would continue to control the Republic of Londonia's defence and foreign relations needs. Perhaps Londonia could also join the EU (although I would be against it if the EU wanted to strangle the Republic with useless regulations and red tape).

    Also, those parts of Westminster encompassing the Palace of Westminster, Westminster Abbey, the Supreme Court at Guildhall, all of the civil service departments along Whitehall, along with the Mall and Buckingham Palace, woudl remain a United Kingdom enclave within the Republic. Venice also had an empire encompassing the Dalmatian coasts (Croatia, basically), parts of Greece, Crete as well as an independent colony in Constantinople and special trading rights throughout Byzantium. Perhaps the United Kingdom could cede British Overseas Territories like the Channel Islands, Manx, the Cayman Islands, Bermuda and so on so that these territories with significant financial industries could become Londonia's overseas empire and add to its financial clout.

    I'm not totally wedded to the idea, but not completely against either. I think it's an interesting and stimulating idea, and I am in favour of anything that permits us to emulate the Venetians. What do you think?
    Venice is stinky, poor, and squalid. This isn't the renaissance, but the early 21st century.

    Your plan is pseudo-intellectual.
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    (Original post by kimkarsd)
    Venice is stinky, poor, and squalid.
    Obviously you've never been there. You're just embarrassing yourself by commenting in such a way that we can see you've never been more than 20 miles away from your home town of Slough
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Hahaha. Currency specualtion, hedge funds, elling property to dodgy foreginers,a nd making nothing, with white people being wiped out and even more ineqaultiy than the UK as a whole, where it is chronic.
    Have you ever even been to London? You obviously haven't spent more than a week or so there if you think that's what London is all about. You have a sadly barren view of London which only reflects on you, not on the city itself which is the equal greatest city in the Anglosphere (with New York)
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    It is such an amazing and beautiful city, I'm completely smitten. And they have such an astonishing history; reading about the incredible patriotism of all Venetians and their loyalty to the republic, how they would all pull together during times of danger... it seems like such a shame that the republic was abolished by Napoleon.

    They also have some amazing stories in their history and they also had a sense of humour; the Venetians used to be plagued with trouble from the neighbouring Archbishopric of Aquileia, which was a vassal of the Holy Roman Empire. The Archbishop would often harass Venice's mainland possessions or claim that the islands in the lagoon belonged to him. One of those times (in the 1200s iirc) the Republic sent troops to attack the archbishop, and he surrendered; in the treaty they agreed, the Archbishop promised in perpetuity to provide twelve fattened hogs so that each year on a particular day, the hogs would be released in the main piazza and the Venetians would chase them around and try to catch them. I think that tradition lasted something like 400 years.

    They also tended to elect very old Doges (and they seemed to have incredible longevity). In the late 1100s they elected Enrico Dandolo as doge; he was already 85 and blind. But he led the Venetian fleet into battle during the Sack of Constantinople in 1205. He even beached his flagship and with sword in hand led his troops up to the walls of the city. It sounds completely improbable, but it has been confirmed by multiple sources.



    Ah yes, county palatinates had a huge degree of independence (though of course were still under the crown). I thought Chester was still (in a very loose and technical sense) still a kind of county palatine, isn't a member of the royal family the Earl of Chester? I say Cheshire should be able to elect an earl to be their leader

    Edit: I just looked on Wikipedia and it says Chester had its own parliament until the 1500s! The "barons of the county" would be represented in it.
    why you copy and pasting facts from wikipedia though?
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    (Original post by Pinkberry_y)
    why you copy and pasting facts from wikipedia though?
    What are you babbling about? Are you drunk?
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    What are you babbling about? Are you drunk?
    If I were drunk, TSR would be the last place I would be at
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    Yes, maybe then the government and the media will realise there is more to the UK than Landan. Get on with it.
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    (Original post by Pinkberry_y)
    If I were drunk, TSR would be the last place I would be at
    Ah, so you're just naturally confused. Maybe you have Alzheimers?:dontknow:
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    Ah, so you're just naturally confused. Maybe you have Alzheimers?:dontknow:
    You should be citing your references after your essays on here about venice, it's good practice- that's coming from someone with Alzheimers
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    Lol England's gonna look like a doughnut....literally
 
 
 
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