Grammar schools to return

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  • View Poll Results: Grammar schools set to return: is that good or bad?
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    (Original post by Orbital_Rising)
    Whether the dictatorship of the proletariat lasts or is destroyed from within does not matter. It is satisfaction enough to know that in a permanent cycle of revolutions the bourgeoisie will not sleep peacefully. You know what they say: some people just want to watch the world burn. And the future is red.
    Err, Ok. So how about:

    (Original post by Orbital_Rising)
    Whether the thousand year Reich lasts or is destroyed from within does not matter. It is satisfaction enough to know that in a permanent cycle of revolutions the Bolsheviks will not sleep peacefully. You know what they say: some people just want to watch the world burn. And the future is brown.
    Seems to be pretty much the same argument.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    Maybe we're talking past each other. I am saying that grammar schools mainly benefit the wealthy for approximately the same reason that healthcare mainly benefits sick people.
    Healthcare also benefits the healthy by preventative measures e.g. vaccinations, health screening, help with stopping smoking etc.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    Catchment areas do not matter in a grammar system.

    In the comprehensive system, all schools are supposedly just as good but in reality high IQ areas fill local schools with high IQ students who do much better than low IQ students. If you want your children to hang out with high IQ students, you need to be in a high IQ catchment area.

    In a grammar system, high IQ kids in low IQ areas are sent to high IQ schools anyway. Catchment area determines which grammar school they go to but not whether or not they will go to a grammar school.
    You are assuming all grammars are the same when they can't be, just like comprehensives.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    You are assuming all grammars are the same when they can't be, just like comprehensives.
    And just like private schools. There are always gradations. But grammar school gives you a large slice of the benefit of sending your children to Eton without any price tag attached.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    You are assuming grammars have no catchment area when of course they would have to. All schools unless they are private would need to limit where their students come from.
    The position with catchment areas is complex.

    Nowhere in England has a true catchment area as Scotland does. There is no parental choice in Scotland. You go to the school in whose catchment area you lie. You can game this by applying to a Catholic school that also has a, usually wider, catchment area. You can ask to be admitted out of catchment area but only once all the kids in the catchment area are accommodated.

    In England you make several choices of school regardless of local authority boundaries. What are called catchment areas are aspects of over-subscription criteria.

    In the case of grammar schools, in most parts of the country they are vastly oversubscribed and so achieving the pass mark that divides sheep from goats is by no means enough to gain admission.

    Grammar schools could take all the sheep and apply the same sorts of over-subscription criteria as non-selective schools use to decide who gains admission to the pen. I am not aware of any grammar that does so.

    Rather, they don't only distinguish between sheep and goats, but only admit the sheep with the finest wool. Only the highest marks gain admission. There are weekly borders at some grammar schools which have no boarding houses. Parents pay another family for the pupil to lodge with them because the pupil lives too far to commute.

    Where there are under-subscribed grammar schools; where there are not enough sheep, places are left vacant. Goats are not admitted.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    Err, Ok. So how about:



    Seems to be pretty much the same argument.
    Except for the fact that I'm not racist, nationalist, anti-semitic, etc. and that I disagree with pretty much all of their policies. Not to mention that the purpose of the revolution is not to perform eugenics but to stop you people from performing 'soft' eugenics. But don't let the facts of my position sway you from the need to call me a Nazi.
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    (Original post by Orbital_Rising)
    Except for the fact that I'm not racist, nationalist, anti-semitic, etc. and that I disagree with pretty much all of their policies. Not to mention that the purpose of the revolution is not to perform eugenics but to stop you people from performing 'soft' eugenics. But don't let the facts of my position sway you from the need to call me a Nazi.
    You said you wanted the world to burn, not to support specific policies. If you just want to blow up the world the Nazis did a pretty good job. Not that I was calling you a Nazi, I was calling you a nihilist.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    And just like private schools. There are always gradations. But grammar school gives you a large slice of the benefit of sending your children to Eton without any price tag attached.
    So why can't you do the same at a comprehensive?
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    Can somebody explain to me what will happen to those who don't get into the grammar school? Because May's 'social mobility won't be hindered' doesn't really convince me. The last time I checked most useful apprenticeships had died long ago and funding for them is being further cut by the current government.

    I wish people would, for just one second, think beyond 'it gives working people a chance'. That's a straw-man argument - give me more substantial evidence or planning regarding this new proposal then I might start to listen.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    The position with catchment areas is complex.

    Nowhere in England has a true catchment area as Scotland does. There is no parental choice in Scotland. You go to the school in whose catchment area you lie. You can game this by applying to a Catholic school that also has a, usually wider, catchment area. You can ask to be admitted out of catchment area but only once all the kids in the catchment area are accommodated.

    In England you make several choices of school regardless of local authority boundaries. What are called catchment areas are aspects of over-subscription criteria.

    In the case of grammar schools, in most parts of the country they are vastly oversubscribed and so achieving the pass mark that divides sheep from goats is by no means enough to gain admission.

    Grammar schools could take all the sheep and apply the same sorts of over-subscription criteria as non-selective schools use to decide who gains admission to the pen. I am not aware of any grammar that does so.

    Rather, they don't only distinguish between sheep and goats, but only admit the sheep with the finest wool. Only the highest marks gain admission. There are weekly borders at some grammar schools which have no boarding houses. Parents pay another family for the pupil to lodge with them because the pupil lives too far to commute.

    Where there are under-subscribed grammar schools; where there are not enough sheep, places are left vacant. Goats are not admitted.
    Sounds like a system that people with money can easily game and I am sure that happens a lot right now.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    You said you wanted the world to burn, not to support specific policies. If you just want to blow up the world the Nazis did a pretty good job. Not that I was calling you a Nazi, I was calling you a nihilist.
    As I implied if society was in a position where the revolution cannot sustain itself a permanent cycle of revolutions would still be preferable to living in your pseudo-legitimate class system. "Burn" is a metaphor for the cycle of red revolutions not a desire to destroy everything. I am not a nihilist.

    But as it happens communism is not a vacuous theory, which is evident from the quickest skim of Capital so it is not impossible to initiate a success revolution, especially with new technology.
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    As a social democrat, I believe bringing back grammar schools will really give those less well off in our society the opportunities that their wealthier counterparts have without facing the costs of being privately educated. Yes, I do acknowledge the argument that pupils can do well regardless of what school they go to if they put their mind into it but I think the common problem is on social mobility and specifically what grammar schools offer. I think the whole issue of social mobility is quite frankly ridiculous as all children are given the opportunities to get in to either a comprehensive school or a grammar school if they work hard to meet the criteria;to those who think I'm talking rubbish because grammar schools have a selective entrance criteria, I pity you as the same thing happens in state schools via sets in core subjects. In terms of delivering a tougher, more vigorous curriculum to stretch those with a higher ability I believe grammar schools offers that (even though I don't attend one myself) as they stretch their pupils more compared to state schools and I'm sure my friend MrMackyTv can tell you about his experiences. In terms of what the Government is planning to do, I agree with the idea of allowing all existing schools to opt into a selective entrance criteria should they wish and the fact that schools are allowed this flexibility shows that this is not a return to the 60s where you have the 11+ exams etc. This is an education reform that gives all people from all backgrounds the opportunities to succeed in life and although I have some disagreements on how May's Government will implement this, I'm very supportive of the idea.
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    (Original post by JTran38)
    As a social democrat, I believe bringing back grammar schools will really give those less well off in our society the opportunities that their wealthier counterparts have without facing the costs of being privately educated. Yes, I do acknowledge the argument that pupils can do well regardless of what school they go to if they put their mind into it but I think the common problem is on social mobility and specifically what grammar schools offer. I think the whole issue of social mobility is quite frankly ridiculous as all children are given the opportunities to get in to either a comprehensive school or a grammar school if they work hard to meet the criteria;to those who think I'm talking rubbish because grammar schools have a selective entrance criteria, I pity you as the same thing happens in state schools via sets in core subjects. In terms of delivering a tougher, more vigorous curriculum to stretch those with a higher ability I believe grammar schools offers that (even though I don't attend one myself) as they stretch their pupils more compared to state schools and I'm sure my friend MrMackyTv can tell you about his experiences. In terms of what the Government is planning to do, I agree with the idea of allowing all existing schools to opt into a selective entrance criteria should they wish and the fact that schools are allowed this flexibility shows that this is not a return to the 60s where you have the 11+ exams etc. This is an education reform that gives all people from all backgrounds the opportunities to succeed in life and although I have some disagreements on how May's Government will implement this, I'm very supportive of the idea.
    How old are you?
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    (Original post by Maker)
    How old are you?
    Why as if that matters to you?
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    (Original post by Maker)
    So why can't you do the same at a comprehensive?
    Comprehensives are only sorted by house price. Grammar schools are sorted mostly by the 11+, secondly by house price.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    Sounds like a system that people with money can easily game and I am sure that happens a lot right now.
    Yes and it is going to get worse because it doesn't look like Theresa intends a national admissions test.

    Teachers do not necessarily want the most intelligent children. They want a quiet life. With every school applying its own intelligence testing; how many will decide that an aspect of intelligence is the ability to wear a knee length skirt and not to put on trainers in the morning.

    I will give you this final thought on grammar schools

    In 2015 Kesteven and Grantham Girls Grammar School was under-subscribed (yes, alumna one Margaret Hilda Roberts)

    The 7.22 from King's Cross will get you to Grantham at 8:25. A child's first class season ticket (with a cooked breakfast and high tea included) for 10 months will cost nearly £6K.

    Think how many parents in Camden have been fighting like cats in a sack to get their daughters into decent London schools, whether private or state, when there there was a grammar school an hour away crying out for anyone who could get a bare pass in the 11 plus.
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    This is a good idea.

    I was in a state primary school and my class held me back from reaching top levels in my SATs.

    Grammar schools don't hold you back and push you. Many friends I have from comprehensives say the work is too easy but a grammar schools they do give you hard work and the workload is more.

    I don't get how the 11+ is unfair. Sets is unfair in comprehensive, GCSE is also unfair because it splits people into classes doesn't it? I don't see what's wrong with giving people who are poor but smart enough to go to a grammar school. Why should everyone be forced to go to comp schools if they don't want to? Parents deserve to have a wide-range of choice when choosing what school they want their child to go to.

    I just really hope this gets passed. But I predict Labour will block this and that will only make me hate them more.
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    (Original post by JTran38)
    As a social democrat, I believe bringing back grammar schools will really give those less well off in our society the opportunities that their wealthier counterparts have without facing the costs of being privately educated.
    What about those who don't make it? Do you think at present our economy is sufficiently diverse enough to support those people when apprenticeship funding is being cut? When's the last time you met somebody who qualified as an engineer through an apprenticeship? Probably never since they got axed over 30 years ago along with Britain's industry which was providing jobs to those who weren't so academically inclined.

    If you can't properly address these important points, I don't see how you can call yourself a social democrat. You've got to acknowledge that there are two sides to this and right now the public is allured by the argument of giving working class kids a chance. It really does hark back to the age of the american dream in more ways than one.
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    (Original post by JTran38)
    Why as if that matters to you?
    Because you were obviously born yesterday.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    Comprehensives are only sorted by house price. Grammar schools are sorted mostly by the 11+, secondly by house price.
    You will find most students in grammars live in more expensive houses than those in secondary moderns.
 
 
 
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