Stop with the "who created God" argument it's bloody horrendous.

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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    We did not disprove ourselves because there is no evidence whatsoever of an eternal first cause. The singularity could have been eternal for all we know.
    This is what happens when you jump in to help people you don't even agree with. I was replying to what mentor said here:

    (Original post by !!mentor!!)
    Why can't the big bang be the eternal first cause?
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    (Original post by StudyJosh)
    This is what happens when you jump in to help people you don't even agree with. I was replying to what mentor said here:
    You quoted me in your response.
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    Occam's razor is probably appropriate to apply to this discussion, seeing as it has deviated from the original title.

    Basically, the universe is here, it makes sense, as does the Big Bang in terms of bringing it about. There's a myriad of evidence to back this up. Adding a god into the equation though, is making the situation more complex than it needs to be, and thus he is probably not real.

    This is veering off my point, but as an aside, I like to think that as primates - seeing as primates have hierarchical structures - we manufactured gods to place above us and give us a hierarchal structure.

    Those are just my thoughts on the matter anyway.


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    (Original post by StudyJosh)
    exactly, you both just disproved urself. because i was just trying to say the Big bang couldn't be the eternal first cause.
    No disproval happened. Universe exists, god doesn't. Therefore, big bang is the eternal first cause. FTW!
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    (Original post by Reaver Daniels)
    Occam's razor is probably appropriate to apply to this discussion, seeing as it has deviated from the original title.

    Basically, the universe is here, it makes sense, as does the Big Bang in terms of bringing it about. There's a myriad of evidence to back this up. Adding a god into the equation though, is making the situation more complex than it needs to be, and thus he is probably not real.

    This is veering off my point, but as an aside, I like to think that as primates - seeing as primates have hierarchical structures - we manufactured gods to place above us and give us a hierarchal structure.

    Those are just my thoughts on the matter anyway.


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    I am not religious, but it's worth pointing out that the Big Bang provides no explanation for a proximate cause of the universe. The Big Bang is essentially a cosmological model of the evolution of the early universe; it says nothing whatsoever about time t=0, and certainly is not in itself a cause that brought the universe into existence.
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    (Original post by Reaver Daniels)
    Occam's razor is probably appropriate to apply to this discussion, seeing as it has deviated from the original title.

    Basically, the universe is here, it makes sense, as does the Big Bang in terms of bringing it about. There's a myriad of evidence to back this up. Adding a god into the equation though, is making the situation more complex than it needs to be, and thus he is probably not real.

    This is veering off my point, but as an aside, I like to think that as primates - seeing as primates have hierarchical structures - we manufactured gods to place above us and give us a hierarchal structure.

    Those are just my thoughts on the matter anyway.

    The thing about Occam's Razor is a lot of things when you look at them do seem a bit more complex than they really need to be, per se. Richard Dawkins' going on about the laryngeal nerve to try and counter intelligent design arguments springs to mind. I myself have recently been thinking that a bunch of biological processes seem to have a lot more steps than one would expect.
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    If things require a creator in order to exist, then a creator also requires a creator.

    If things can exist without a creator, then a creator isn't required to explain them.

    I don't understand what reasoning is used to determine that everything is required to have a creator except the creator. It doesn't explain away infinite regress because there's no reason to preference a creator over saying, for example, a multi-verse space has always existed, and in it universes are caused to pop-up, or any one of many other candidate explanations.

    Something I don't understand even more is why this creator is considered to be omniscient, omnipotent or omnibenevolent. Although simple to linguistically express, it's literally the most complex explanation to the problem possible, for the creator is in fact the most complex thing imaginable (and indeed is often regarded to be positively unimaginable).

    A creator just isn't a very good explanation - at least not more so than others we have available.
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    Well, the thread starter clearly does not understand the argument he's trying to criticize.

    (Original post by miser)
    If things require a creator in order to exist, then a creator also requires a creator.
    Exactly. Pure logic, no reference to experience is needed here.


    (Original post by BrainJuice)
    that nothing at all would come to existence.
    Meaning of this words: "0 would be 1"
    There you go with fundamental explanation. Study the Parmenides of Elea. Something exists because this is an only logical possibility.
    Which means that you can't say a word about anything beyond that, without saying something that has no sense at all in knowable logic. So you either must stop talking about God or get a proof that 0 and 1 are the same.
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    (Original post by !!mentor!!)
    No disproval happened. Universe exists, god doesn't. Therefore, big bang is the eternal first cause. FTW!
    Yeah, just leave, we know you flopped.

    To be eternal is to be outside of time so to say the Big Bang has always been happening makes no sense or to say the Big Bang exists outside of time also makes no sense seeing as the theory was intended to prove the universe had a beginning (from God).
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    (Original post by StudyJosh)
    Yeah, just leave, we know you flopped.

    To be eternal is to be outside of time so to say the Big Bang has always been happening makes no sense or to say the Big Bang exists outside of time also makes no sense seeing as the theory was intended to prove the universe had a beginning (from God).
    You have failed harder than a hard thing that's hard.

    The prophet 'Richard Dawkins' has shown that the 'Flying Spaghetti Monster' is the cause of everything. It exists 'outside of the outside of time. Even god doesn't exist there.

    As is stated in Levitrius 17a: 91q: "Am god an ah doan exist. Ya no am sayin?"
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    God doesn't exist j just drank some alcohol and I'm
    Still alive to tell the tale right omg am I agnostic Idony know who am
    I
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    (Original post by !!mentor!!)
    You have failed harder than a hard thing that's hard.

    The prophet 'Richard Dawkins' has shown that the 'Flying Spaghetti Monster' is the cause of everything. It exists 'outside of the outside of time. Even god doesn't exist there.

    As is stated in Levitrius 17a: 91q: "Am god an ah doan exist. Ya no am sayin?"
    Idk how that relates to you saying the 'Big Bang' is the 'Eternal first cause' when it can't be. Whereas, God can be.

    All you did was just spout some rubbish AGAIN because you couldn't back up yourself so you resort to LAME, OLD and really CRAPPY Pastafarian jokes because you love ridiculing and talking so much about a concept you don't even believe in...

    hmmmmmmmmmmm
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    Stop with the "who created the universe" argument it's bloody horrendous.

    Also, if there can be an eternal first cause then why not an infinite regression?

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    (Original post by StudyJosh)
    Idk how that relates to you saying the 'Big Bang' is the 'Eternal first cause' when it can't be. Whereas, God can be.

    All you did was just spout some rubbish AGAIN because you couldn't back up yourself so you resort to LAME, OLD and really CRAPPY Pastafarian jokes because you love ridiculing and talking so much about a concept you don't even believe in...

    hmmmmmmmmmmm
    But...but...i've already proven that god can't be the eternal first cause because he only exists outside of time. The big bang can exist outside of the outside of time. That means god can't be the eternal first cause.

    What you're regurgitating is just a new type of, "Tide goes in, tide goes out. Can't explain that!"
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    (Original post by !!mentor!!)
    But...but...i've already proven that god can't be the eternal first cause because he only exists outside of time. The big bang can exist outside of the outside of time. That means god can't be the eternal first cause.

    What you're regurgitating is just a new type of, "Tide goes in, tide goes out. Can't explain that!"
    ??? What?

    All I am saying is that the Big Bang can't BE THE ETERNAL FIRST CAUSE which is was you said, simple. What are even talking about? The tide meme or what you're saying is rubbish/has nothing to do with it.

    I never said just because the Big Bang isn't the eternal first cause it means that God is... You're just embarrassing yourself really.

    'But...but...i've already proven that god can't be the eternal first cause because he only exists outside of time. The big bang can exist outside of the outside of time. That means god can't be the eternal first cause.;

    As I already disproved what you said, I don't even see what you're going on about. YOU WERE WRONG. You said 'Why can't the Big Bang be the Eternal first cause?' and I proved you wrong. It's fairly simple.
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    (Original post by StudyJosh)
    ??? What?

    All I am saying is that the Big Bang can't BE THE ETERNAL FIRST CAUSE which is was you said, simple. What are even talking about? The tide meme or what you're saying is rubbish/has nothing to do with it.
    You can say it all you want but it doesn't make it true. The big bang has just as much chance (maybe even more so) of being the eternal first cause as 'god' does.
    The 'tide' quote comes from Bill O'Reilly. You should check it out. Basically he's saying, I don't understand something therefore, i'll attribute god to it. This is a fail on so many levels by you and Bill.


    (Original post by StudyJosh)
    I never said just because the Big Bang isn't the eternal first cause it means that God is... You're just embarrassing yourself really..
    You have been arguing from the stand point that god is the eternal first cause. Boy, i'd hate to be you when people read over this thread and find that you've forgotten what you said.


    (Original post by StudyJosh)
    ??? What?
    As I already disproved what you said, I don't even see what you're going on about. YOU WERE WRONG. You said 'Why can't the Big Bang be the Eternal first cause?' and I proved you wrong. It's fairly simple.
    I know you don't understand what i'm saying. And for that you have my pity. Another of your stand points seems to be 'I don't understand science, therefore I'll assume no-one else does either and thus they are wrong.'

    It's okay. You continue to sound off this gobbledegook whilst the rest of us more scientifically literate people continue to advance the world.
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    You're very sad indeed.

    As already said by many atheists, the Big Bang shows how the universe formed not actually started.

    To be eternal is to exist outside of time. How can the Big Bang have always have been happening? - that makes no sense. Just stop. You keep strawmanning but said before, you're only embarrassing yourself.

    I never said because the Big Bang isnt the cause, it automatically means that God must be it. I just believe it is God. Stop strawmanning then using old and bad memes (that yes I have seen) just because you don't know what you're talking about.
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    (Original post by StudyJosh)
    To be eternal is to exist outside of time. How can the Big Bang have always have been happening? - that makes no sense. ...........

    I just believe it is God.
    God is one and only one possible explanation.

    There are things we know.
    There are things we know we do not know.
    There are things we do not know that we don't know.

    Invoking God as an explanation simply cuts off all other avenues of possibility.

    The consequence is to stick fingers in both ears and say 'la lal la I'm not listening'.
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    (Original post by StudyJosh)
    You're very sad indeed.

    As already said by many atheists, the Big Bang shows how the universe formed not actually started.

    To be eternal is to exist outside of time. How can the Big Bang have always have been happening? - that makes no sense. Just stop. You keep strawmanning but said before, you're only embarrassing yourself.

    I never said because the Big Bang isnt the cause, it automatically means that God must be it. I just believe it is God. Stop strawmanning then using old and bad memes (that yes I have seen) just because you don't know what you're talking about.
    Then you're talking to the wrong atheists. Even the Pope agrees that the big bang is how the universe started. He just believes god caused the big bang (which is a discussion for another topic).

    You keep trying to push certain ideas without understanding what they mean: outside of time, strawmanning. You have no idea what any of these phrases mean.

    You don't understand the Big Bang, clearly. But you do understand your own pseudo scientific "outside of time" malarkey?!?! I suppose it is easier to understand your own made up pseudo science than it is to understand peer reviewed science.

    You people of faith have had your time. When you people were in charge we had the dark ages, burning witches, persecution of scientists.

    You are of course free to believe in fairy tales but like I said, people of science will continue to advance human understanding while the old "God did it, innit" lot continue to try and hold us back.

    The Big Bang theory is still the best explanation for the beginning of the universe. All you have to do is provide a repeatable, testable, valid experiment to add weight to your claims, otherwise you'll keep repeating "Um, err, god exists outside of time" and i'll repeat, "Well the big bang exists outside of the outside of time".

    Big Bang 1 : god 0
 
 
 
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