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Article 50 - requires parliamentary approval Watch

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    What this really boils down to, is do we want the future of our country to be trashed by a small group of less than 100 Tory rightwingers, many of them corrupt, many of them nothing more than cardboard cutouts planted in Parliament by money from Lord Ashcroft, a fully offshored magnate who runs Belize like a private fief and who has dodgy relationships there with all kinds of extremely dubious acts and individuals. Is this how Britain should be run? Why don't we just flog it off to the Colombian Cartels, it's about the same.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    In the case of Scottish devolution, for example, prior to the referendum to create a Scottish Parliament, there was a full Constitutional Convention and then an act passed in the UK Parliament sanctioning that there would be a Parliament if confirmed by referendum. So no, there is no such convention.

    I'm still waiting for the EU Membership Convention to be called.
    Why would there be an EU membership convention? In the Westminster / common law system, conventions are held either to draft a constitution or a convention parliament is held where the monarch is absent and cannot assent to parliament assembling.

    Leaving the EU is not a matter that requires teams of lawyers drafting a constitution, it's a simple political question; should we remain in the EU or should we leave? Part of growing up is learning to be a good loser. If the Remain side had won you wouldn't be questioning its legitimacy.

    And if the Remainers could command a majority for prohibiting the government from triggering Art 50, they would do that. They can't command such a majority, so parliament is assenting to what the government is doing. They are fully capable under their own powers of preventing it; they are making no moves to do so because parliament as a whole does not wish it.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    What this really boils down to, is do we want the future of our country to be trashed by a small group of less than 100 Tory rightwingers, many of them corrupt
    Comments like these probably contributed to your defeat. You genuinely don't realise your arrogance led to the Remain side's downfall.

    It's not 100 Tories, it's 17 million voters. 100 doesn't even make a majority in the Tory Party, let alone parliament. If the Commons wanted to overrule the government and prevent them from triggering Article 50, it has that right.

    It chooses not to do that, because even though a majority of MPs are Remainers they also recognise that the referendum is politically and morally binding. Referendum comes from the latin refere; to refer. The matter was referred to the people; they have given their decision. It is now up to the politicians to carry out that decision.

    All the wailing and the crying and the gnashing of the teeth will get you nowhere, nor will insulting 17 million of your fellow countrymen and women. If you want the UK to be part of the EU some time in the future, you need to learn to persuade, to charm, to induce. That is how you can make a start on convincing the British people to rejoin the EU. Insulting them, calling them names, implying that they are stupid, will get you nowhere and it does not reflect very well on you at all.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)

    Leaving the EU is not a matter that requires teams of lawyers drafting a constitution, it's a simple political question; should we remain in the EU or should we leave? Part of growing up is learning to be a good loser. If the Remain side had won you wouldn't be questioning its legitimacy.
    The position is hugely complex and Parliament would get bogged down for years in all the implications.

    One biggie is the way devolution has been drafted, which means that potentially Scotland can decide it still wants to be under EU regulations.
    https://constitution-unit.com/2016/0...el-convention/

    Then we go on to the nightmare of all the complexities of how EU funded programmes intersect with British government and non-governmental agencies. That's huge and so far the government are refusing to even think about it, hence major programmes like Erasmus now look endangered already.
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    I'd be rather concerned if I am was in agreement with the likes of Farage, Trump & Marine Le Pen.

    I believe that there will be a majority prohibiting the Government from triggering when it finally hits home how insane the whole thing really is. Oh, parliament as a whole will most certainly not want Article 50 to be triggered, they are just biding their time for the Brexiteers to fail and start blaming those around them (which has already started).
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Then we go on to the nightmare of all the complexities of how EU funded programmes intersect with British government and non-governmental agencies. That's huge and so far the government are refusing to even think about it, hence major programmes like Erasmus now look endangered already.
    Sadly these things are of little importance to Leavers. Don't you know that the British people are sick of experts hahaha
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The position is hugely complex and Parliament would get bogged down for years in all the implications.
    That doesn't mean the decision should be decided in a constitutional convention. These matters are very complex and cannot be decided by partisan committees, it's a matter for government lawyers and civil servants to rely on regulation to tidy up the law where needed. The fact it's complex is not a good enough reason for overturning the will of the people.

    Also, please explain your above comment, bizarre as it was, that parliament is "legislating itself out of existence". I'm not trying to be rude but it genuinely makes you sound utterly clueless.

    Parliament has the power, right now, to enact a law forbidding the government to trigger Article 50. It is not doing so because the Remainers do not have a majority to do that; even those who supported Remain will mostly not vote for such a bill. So parliament is consenting to this measure. It can prevent Art 50 being triggered, it chooses not to

    One biggie is the way devolution has been drafted, which means that potentially Scotland can decide it still wants to be under EU regulations.
    https://constitution-unit.com/2016/0...el-convention/
    Scotland is perfectly entitled, to the extent its parliament is empowered to do so, to pass all of the EU regulations in a Scottish statute. It is not entitled to remain part of the EU in any way, shape or form.

    Then we go on to the nightmare of all the complexities of how EU funded programmes intersect with British government and non-governmental agencies. That's huge
    It's not huge, it's about £10 billion in total, which is about 1.5% of overall government spending. Of all the issues arising from leaving the EU, that is not even in the top 5 in terms of complexity
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    (Original post by Ed Phelan)
    Sadly these things are of little importance to Leavers. Don't you know that the British people are sick of experts hahaha
    Or perhaps they were sick of deluded lower-middle class no-hopers who use being pro-European as a proxy for a worldliness and sophistication they completely lack and will never possess.

    If you think the question of EU funding flowing into the UK, which constitutes around 1.5% of overall government spending, is some kind of intractable issue, then you are obviously so clueless and ignorant of government and law that you probably shouldn't even have been allowed to vote in the referendum.
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    Theresa May says Brexit means Brexit, but Brexit could take countless different forms. Parliament must be allowed to scrutinise and vote on whatever mode of Brexit the government puts forwards. So much for democracy and sovereignty. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Ed Phelan)
    I'd be rather concerned if I am was in agreement with the likes of Farage, Trump & Marine Le Pen.
    Farage doesn't think Jews should be killed en masse. I agree with him on that. Can I take it that because you believe agreeing with Farage is always wrong, you believe Jews should be killed en masse?

    If your views are dictated by whatever Farage thinks (and you just take care to always disagree) then you really are as mindless as kippers.

    I believe that there will be a majority prohibiting the Government from triggering when it finally hits home how insane the whole thing really is
    You're utterly delusional if you believe that. You're projecting your childish fantasies and overestimating the likelihood of an outcome happening simply because you want it to happen.

    parliament as a whole will most certainly not want Article 50 to be triggered, they are just biding their time for the Brexiteers to fail and start blaming those around them (which has already started).
    A majority of parliamentarians were in favour of remaining. But a majority of that majority possesses the political sense not to try to oppose the clear and settled will of the people on this matter.

    Parliament is fully entitled to enact a law prohibiting the government from triggering Article 50. They are not doing so because the more fanatical remainers could not command a majority in the Commons to support such a resolution. Once Article 50 has been triggered, it is irreversible so unless parliament passes a law in the next three months prohibiting the government from doing so, it will go ahead and there will be nothing you can do.

    No-one on the government benches will vote against triggering Article 50, and there is a sufficient euroskeptic wing on the Labour benches to provide a nice buffer against any defections. Article 50 will be triggered; we are leaving the European Union. The question is will people like you continue to embarrass themselves by behaving like children, or will they come to terms with what has happened and try to play a constructive role?
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    I'm no legal scholar so I'm not going to disagree with the House of Lords. Since the representatives of people have to represent people's opinion I think MPs should vote in favour. However, I was thinking maybe MPs could vote according to what their constituencies voted for in the EU referendum. Like if the majority in one constituency voted leave then they should vote in favour and if they voted remain they should vote against. Although I don't think even that is fair because the mandate was that the decision to leave the EU is based on nationwide majority rather than by constituencies like in a general election.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Because to win an election is a test in itself. Whilst some politicians are idiots you almost always find those that make it to decision making positions are incredibly well educated. More than this they also have their hands held by well trained and educated advisors and civil servants.

    An election is a number of people arguing why they are best qualified to make decisions and to convince the public of this.

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    I'll refer my answer to alexanderhams response below my last post


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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    Farage doesn't think Jews should be killed en masse. I agree with him on that. Can I take it that because you believe agreeing with Farage is always wrong, you believe Jews should be killed en masse?

    If your views are dictated by whatever Farage thinks (and you just take care to always disagree) then you really are as mindless as kippers.



    You're utterly delusional if you believe that. You're projecting your childish fantasies and overestimating the likelihood of an outcome happening simply because you want it to happen.



    A majority of parliamentarians were in favour of remaining. But a majority of that majority possesses the political sense not to try to oppose the clear and settled will of the people on this matter.

    Parliament is fully entitled to enact a law prohibiting the government from triggering Article 50. They are not doing so because the more fanatical remainers could not command a majority in the Commons to support such a resolution. Once Article 50 has been triggered, it is irreversible so unless parliament passes a law in the next three months prohibiting the government from doing so, it will go ahead and there will be nothing you can do.

    No-one on the government benches will vote against triggering Article 50, and there is a sufficient euroskeptic wing on the Labour benches to provide a nice buffer against any defections. Article 50 will be triggered; we are leaving the European Union. The question is will people like you continue to embarrass themselves by behaving like children, or will they come to terms with what has happened and try to play a constructive role?
    It's done and despite the fact that I don't like it I have to respect democracy.
    But I do believe that the majority of MPs are in favour of remain. All major parties supprted the remail side. I just don't think they can come up with any excuse to vote against triggering article 50.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    Or perhaps they were sick of deluded lower-middle class no-hopers who use being pro-European as a proxy for a worldliness and sophistication they completely lack and will never possess.

    If you think the question of EU funding flowing into the UK, which constitutes around 1.5% of overall government spending, is some kind of intractable issue, then you are obviously so clueless and ignorant of government and law that you probably shouldn't even have been allowed to vote in the referendum.
    What a foul person you are.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    Farage doesn't think Jews should be killed en masse. I agree with him on that. Can I take it that because you believe agreeing with Farage is always wrong, you believe Jews should be killed en masse?

    If your views are dictated by whatever Farage thinks (and you just take care to always disagree) then you really are as mindless as kippers.



    You're utterly delusional if you believe that. You're projecting your childish fantasies and overestimating the likelihood of an outcome happening simply because you want it to happen.



    A majority of parliamentarians were in favour of remaining. But a majority of that majority possesses the political sense not to try to oppose the clear and settled will of the people on this matter.

    Parliament is fully entitled to enact a law prohibiting the government from triggering Article 50. They are not doing so because the more fanatical remainers could not command a majority in the Commons to support such a resolution. Once Article 50 has been triggered, it is irreversible so unless parliament passes a law in the next three months prohibiting the government from doing so, it will go ahead and there will be nothing you can do.

    No-one on the government benches will vote against triggering Article 50, and there is a sufficient euroskeptic wing on the Labour benches to provide a nice buffer against any defections. Article 50 will be triggered; we are leaving the European Union. The question is will people like you continue to embarrass themselves by behaving like children, or will they come to terms with what has happened and try to play a constructive role?
    I have Irish citizenship and plan to move abroad next summer, so for me it isn't a major issue. I have no intention what so ever in participating and playing a constructive role in the process, thanks. Good luck in attracting EU workers to the NHS as well - haha!
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    (Original post by TrotskyiteRebel)
    It's done and despite the fact that I don't like it I have to respect democracy.
    But I do believe that the majority of MPs are in favour of remain. All major parties supprted the remail side. I just don't think they can come up with any excuse to vote against triggering article 50.
    I completely agree with you, I think I did say that in my comment (if I didn't, I should have been more clear). I do believe a clear majority of MPs are in favour of Remain (around 480 out of 650 iirc).

    The thing is, parliament could enact a law prohibiting the government from triggering Article 50. But I highly doubt that would happen; even those who are strongly pro-Remain don't want to be seen as anti-democratic; that's why they want the process in reverse, they want the government to bring an Article 50 trigger bill so they can find petty and technical reasons to vote against it.

    But I don't think a majority of Remainers will go for that. I would be surprised if any Tory MPs would vote to obstruct triggering Article 50, and there is a buffer of euroskeptic MPs on the Labour side to increase that majority. Excepting some of the most fanatical pro-Remain MPs (like Owen Smith), I don't think many of them are keen to try to prevent Article 50 for obvious political reasons
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    (Original post by Ed Phelan)
    I have Irish citizenship and plan to move abroad next summer
    I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be impressed... I've lived my whole adult life outside the country of my birth, in three different countries and I have triple citizenship including two European ones.

    Your possession of Irish citizenship doesn't make you more cosmopolitan, or more worldly. I'd say my original judgment was correct; you're undoubtedly (judging on your clunky prose style and hysterical Remainism) one of those deluded lower-middle class pro-Europeans who thinks their Remainism makes them somehow worldly and cosmopolitan, whereas in fact they are just parochial little Europeans who have rarely travelled anywhere outside Europe.

    Good luck in attracting EU workers to the NHS as well - haha!
    We won't have any issues attracting them. The reason they come here is because they can't get work in their home country. That will still be the case after a Brexit, the government makes the laws and it can give easy residence visas to these people.

    Countries like Australia which have a nurse shortage somehow still manage to attract them. We will do the same, whether they come from Europe or other parts of the world.

    I do find your childish little "Up yours, England" mentality quite amusing though. You desperately want the UK to suffer for leaving the EU, thus justifying the assessment that many Remainers are puerile and petty (and that the EU has a protection racket mentality). Thankfully you lack any economic understanding or intuition so your hatred for the UK will not find its expression in some kind of deep recession you clearly hope for.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be impressed... I've lived my whole adult life outside the country of my birth, in three different countries and I have triple citizenship.

    Your possession of Irish citizenship doesn't make you more cosmopolitan, or more worldly. I'd say my original judgment was correct; you're undoubtedly (judging on your clunky prose style and hysterical Remainism) that you are one of those deluded lower-middle class pro-Europeans who thinks their Remainism makes them somehow worldly and cosmopolitan, whereas in fact they are just parochial little Europeans who have rarely travelled anywhere outside Europe.



    We won't have any issues attracting them. The reason they come here is because they can't get work in their home country. That will still be the case after a Brexit, the government makes the laws and it can give easy residence visas to these people.

    Countries like Australia which have a nurse shortage somehow still manage to attract them. We will do the same, whether they come from Europe or other parts of the world.

    I do find your childish little "Up yours, England" mentality quite amusing though. You desperately want the UK to suffer for leaving the EU, thus justifying the assessment that many Remainers are puerile and petty (and that the EU has a protection racket mentality). Thankfully you lack any economic understanding or intuition so your hatred for the UK will not find its expression in some kind of deep recession you clearly hope for.
    I didn't say that it did make me more worldly, I am a proud European citizen. I am in no way claiming that it makes me feel cosmopolitan. That is just you being immature and making assumptions about people. Oh, and I have travelled around the world before. Oh yes, and I am not middle class.

    Would you like to make any other assumptions?
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    Can some of the Remainers here just get real, and take a look at yourself?

    Here you are, agreeing to vote on something, and then later question the legality of the referendum.

    You argue that parliament must have a vote on triggering Article 50 because we are a parliamentary democracy. What is the point of having the parliament to vote on it, when the public had already decided? Parliament is a leveraged representation of the publics view, whereas a referendum reflects the exact public's view. You simply cannot object to a referendum result, unless you are against democracy.

    What I despise more than anything, is that some of you constantly hide your self-interest behind a facade of a moral high ground. You lots are more than prepared to label your opposition as racists, xenophobes, angry voters etc. You consider yourself as morally, culturally and intellectually superior. When 52% voted against you, you see yourself as the 'saviour of the people' and starts telling others to vote again.

    This really just shows bigotry in its ugliest form. Where is the honesty and integrity in these people?

    It is obvious these people are just playing games, desparately and cowardly trying to discredit the referendum with petty reasons. This is fine by me, but at least man up and admit to it.
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    "This really just shows bigotry in its ugliest form. Where is the honesty and integrity in these people?"

    You can apply this even more the Leave campaign, which appears to have been based on misleading people. I agree that both sides need to look at themselves though during the campaign. At the end of the day though the remaining or leaving will not be done with the public at the forefront of their minds.
 
 
 
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