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Should we get rid of weaker universities? Watch

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    (Original post by Josb)
    Bring the polytechnics back.
    :eek2: Careful, you're opening a Pandora's box....
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    We could just raise the tuition fee cap.
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    How disgusting and backward thinking. You want to deny thousands of people further education. Last time I checked education was a human right. Your idea will lower the UK average of how many have higher education as thousands more people won't be able to obtain a degree. This will make the UK look so much worse of a country.

    A lot of people don't even go to university in the first place.
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    Education in itself is a positive thing, and education and personal development should be available to all who want it. If they want to go to uni, they should be able to, even if they're not at the top of the class. It's not like they're depriving you of your ability to go to Cambridge by them going to London Met.

    Your idea of taking the money away from the bottom universities and reallocating it to the top ones isn't well thought-out, because simply throwing money at universities will not make them better. These universities already have very large endowments anyway.

    Your Cambridge degree will not lose its value just because there are more people getting degrees from Anglia Ruskin and the like. The best and most qualified will naturally rise to the top in our meritocratic society. Or is your only reason for wanting a university degree the prestige from being one of the few to actually have a degree? You can still get the prestige by going to the top unis.

    Education should be available to everyone as an end in itself.
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    (Original post by Strawberry68)
    How disgusting and backward thinking. You want to deny thousands of people further education. Last time I checked education was a human right. Your idea will lower the UK average of how many have higher education as thousands more people won't be able to obtain a degree. This will make the UK look so much worse of a country.

    A lot of people don't even go to university in the first place.
    Higher education was never a human right, it's an achievement and is not compulsory. If you work hard and get the grades you get to go, if you slack off and get into a low-tier university and study something like games and designs, perhaps you should reconsider your stance. Those people who want to take David Beckham studies should do so in a technical college where they have to pay less. What is so bad about the solution I'm providing?
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    (Original post by Abstract_Prism)
    Education in itself is a positive thing, and education and personal development should be available to all who want it. If they want to go to uni, they should be able to, even if they're not at the top of the class. It's not like they're depriving you of your ability to go to Cambridge by them going to London Met.

    Your idea of taking the money away from the bottom universities and reallocating it to the top ones isn't well thought-out, because simply throwing money at universities will not make them better. These universities already have very large endowments anyway.

    Your Cambridge degree will not lose its value just because there are more people getting degrees from Anglia Ruskin and the like. The best and most qualified will naturally rise to the top in our meritocratic society. Or is your only reason for wanting a university degree the prestige from being one of the few to actually have a degree? You can still get the prestige by going to the top unis.

    Education should be available to everyone as an end in itself.
    It's very noble all of what you're proposing but the reality is such things can't happen. When tuition fees are a burden to the tax payers, many of whom who haven't gone to university, then it is a problem and it is unfair. I don't want to pay my taxes for someone who's unemployed, or working in Burger King, who has a degree in Media Studies from London Met, sorry.

    Many of our universities could do with more investments. Just compare the endowment rates of our UK universities compared to those of Asia and America. Our government invests lower percentages from our GDP than in Asia and America, and that's why Asian universities are in the rise in the top 100, and why American universities dominate. If we can get the investment from those low tier universities, whom often scam international students as my OP's video shows, our already well established universities can continue growing their facilities and compete globally, as well as raise their teaching quality.

    Education doesn't have to be in the form of a university degree. It can be through apprenticeships and technical colleges which we need to emphasise more. Many students feel going to university is the only way to gain success, which is why they go even if it's Sheffield Hallam, which it isn't.
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    Actually I am someone that has been affected by this and so I can comment and I have to come out in complete agreement with the OP. Whether I agree with cutting universities to 50 is more debatable. Briefly an arbitrary number is not the way to do it, we should insist universities are up to a certain standard and hold their students to a certain standard, if they are not they should not get funding or be allowed that title. If they are then their is no reason to limit how many can do that. Currently if they are been held to any sort of standard it is an abysmal one.

    A lot of universities and degree subjects offer very little in the way of value. Believe me they do the students that go their a very poor service.

    I got BBD at a level with a B in general studies for BBBD if that counts (it shouldn't good rule of thumb generally if a university accepts general studies they are not worth going to. There will be exceptions but generic rule)

    I dropped out of my first university and then went to a poly technic and got a 2:1 here is the thing I got that 2:1 with less then six hours of work a week outside of lectures and seminars of which i had 6-8 per week. I got a 2:1 with less then 14 hours total study time a week. Think about that.

    let that sink in I am nothing special here I spoke to someone that went to the same university today the university specialized in his subject so was more rigorous their. He spent long hours on his degree but he mentioned to me he noticed hardly anyone else put much work in at all on the other courses etc. So it wasn't just me.

    The fact is that I have myself to blame for screwing up my education, I am turning that round by studying for new A levels on top of a full time job, in the hopes of going to a decent Russel group university I had savings to begin with and am managing to put aside quite a bit.

    However Boy do i wish people had warned me strongly to get better A levels and to go to a proper university. Boy what a waste of time money and life.

    Here is the fact students who get CCC for the most part either did not work as hard as students who got AAA+ or they are just, not as bright. Sorry but it is true. In my case it was due to been lazy and I have paid for that and am putting it right. In other cases harsh but true they just are not as brainy.

    If you get into a university that ask for CCC guess what they know the majority of students on their course either are not that bright or simply do not work hard enough. They cannot have students failing so they have to adjust the course appropriately and thus you get a watered down version of a degree.

    I don't care if it sounds harsh if you have to work your ass off to get CCC then you are probably not as smart as someone who can get AAA. If so I don't think you are been well served by going to university. I think it would make sense for you to choose another path.

    If you are as smart then you clearly are not working hard enough so your not ready for university yet, you have the wrong attitude and you don't deserve to go/are been poorly served by going.

    There will be exceptions I accept some schools are better then others and some people get an easier ride then others. However this is not fixed by more abysmal education, how does getting £10s thousands in debt and spending 3/4 years gaining little if any skills whilst also missing out on valuable work experience help those who were previously disadvantaged? pardon my french but that is doing nothing but pissing on them when they are already down.

    You want to fix that set up foundation courses/access courses that will bring people up to speed set up out reach programs to give them other opportunities, make websites such as exam solutions. Improve the education system for disadvantaged students.

    I think everyone deserves further education if they are able and hard working. If they are not hard working then no they don't. If they are not able then lying to them and giving them a false substitute whilst charging them full whack for it does them no favors.
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    Even twenty five years ago the phrase was "bums on seats"
    I think this is even more true now.

    Eventually the students numbers will fall at the worst performing institutions.
    In turn they will have financial trouble and will become an annex of the more successful universities.

    In years to come you could have the Cambridge University (Chelmsford) campus, or the University of Southampton (Portsmouth) campus.

    Meanwhile prospective students need to be very careful where they spend their debt.
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    I think a better policy would be to reduce the fee cap for 'bad' universities, and thereby forcing them to improve their teaching quality.

    I don't see why mediocre universities can charge the same tuition fee as those in the top 20.
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    (Original post by Strawberry68)
    How disgusting and backward thinking. You want to deny thousands of people further education. Last time I checked education was a human right. Your idea will lower the UK average of how many have higher education as thousands more people won't be able to obtain a degree. This will make the UK look so much worse of a country.

    A lot of people don't even go to university in the first place.
    Higher education is certainly not a human right.
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    (Original post by CherishFreedom)
    I don't see why mediocre universities can charge the same tuition fee as those in the top 20.
    Because their graduates won't repay the loan.
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    (Original post by Josb)
    Because their graduates won't repay the loan.
    Sort of a chicken and egg problem though. Reducing the fee cap may also endure that students will actually pay their fees, without requiring the tax payers to write off the outstanding loan.
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    (Original post by Luke7456)
    Actually I am someone that has been affected by this and so I can comment and I have to come out in complete agreement with the OP. Whether I agree with cutting universities to 50 is more debatable. Briefly an arbitrary number is not the way to do it, we should insist universities are up to a certain standard and hold their students to a certain standard, if they are not they should not get funding or be allowed that title. If they are then their is no reason to limit how many can do that. Currently if they are been held to any sort of standard it is an abysmal one.

    A lot of universities and degree subjects offer very little in the way of value. Believe me they do the students that go their a very poor service.

    I got BBD at a level with a B in general studies for BBBD if that counts (it shouldn't good rule of thumb generally if a university accepts general studies they are not worth going to. There will be exceptions but generic rule)

    I dropped out of my first university and then went to a poly technic and got a 2:1 here is the thing I got that 2:1 with less then six hours of work a week outside of lectures and seminars of which i had 6-8 per week. I got a 2:1 with less then 14 hours total study time a week. Think about that.

    let that sink in I am nothing special here I spoke to someone that went to the same university today the university specialized in his subject so was more rigorous their. He spent long hours on his degree but he mentioned to me he noticed hardly anyone else put much work in at all on the other courses etc. So it wasn't just me.

    The fact is that I have myself to blame for screwing up my education, I am turning that round by studying for new A levels on top of a full time job, in the hopes of going to a decent Russel group university I had savings to begin with and am managing to put aside quite a bit.

    However Boy do i wish people had warned me strongly to get better A levels and to go to a proper university. Boy what a waste of time money and life.

    Here is the fact students who get CCC for the most part either did not work as hard as students who got AAA+ or they are just, not as bright. Sorry but it is true. In my case it was due to been lazy and I have paid for that and am putting it right. In other cases harsh but true they just are not as brainy.

    If you get into a university that ask for CCC guess what they know the majority of students on their course either are not that bright or simply do not work hard enough. They cannot have students failing so they have to adjust the course appropriately and thus you get a watered down version of a degree.

    I don't care if it sounds harsh if you have to work your ass off to get CCC then you are probably not as smart as someone who can get AAA. If so I don't think you are been well served by going to university. I think it would make sense for you to choose another path.

    If you are as smart then you clearly are not working hard enough so your not ready for university yet, you have the wrong attitude and you don't deserve to go/are been poorly served by going.

    There will be exceptions I accept some schools are better then others and some people get an easier ride then others. However this is not fixed by more abysmal education, how does getting £10s thousands in debt and spending 3/4 years gaining little if any skills whilst also missing out on valuable work experience help those who were previously disadvantaged? pardon my french but that is doing nothing but pissing on them when they are already down.

    You want to fix that set up foundation courses/access courses that will bring people up to speed set up out reach programs to give them other opportunities, make websites such as exam solutions. Improve the education system for disadvantaged students.

    I think everyone deserves further education if they are able and hard working. If they are not hard working then no they don't. If they are not able then lying to them and giving them a false substitute whilst charging them full whack for it does them no favors.
    I agree with all your points 100%. I'm sorry to hear about your experience You're doing the right thing by re-doing your A-Levels and aiming for a Russell Group. I almost fell into the same trap, I thought all universities despite rankings were similar in teaching quality. I got A*AB and was planning to go to a polytechnic because it was near where I lived and my parents wanted me to stay at home. Thank God I did my research and I'm now going to a nice Russell Group Redbrick this fall.

    Thanks for sharing your experience anyway, hopefully this thread will warn prospective students. Best of luck for the future x
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    (Original post by DraculaMihawk)
    Just look at the video I posted. It's happening everywhere, universities run like businesses now and prey on naive students. The margin is negative and many students have regretted going to university. You see them everywhere at McDonalds, KFC, Burger King, you name it, students with BA degrees from poor universities who regret their decision. Many of the students who come from those crap universities, who managed to get a job, could've gotten those jobs without getting in £27,000+ debt that many of them will never pay back. You wouldn't happened to go to London Met now would you?

    There needs to be better alternatives, like I've already said in this thread, for those less academically capable students.
    No, I am going to Imperial. I personally don't see how dedicating three years of your life to such a great cause as educating oneself could ever be a bad thing, specially when you don't have to pay the debt back unless you benefit from your education. I also do not rely on anecdotal evidence. I know 3 people who are now doing PhDs at Oxford, having done their BScs at Coventry, and Royal Holloway. It depends on each individual. Also, a lot of the people I know who went to not-so-good unis have benefited from their degrees in their own ways, either personally or socially.

    The main purpose of university is education, not getting you a job. As long as a university is doing its job in providing the education it promised, no one should complain.

    Going to not-so-great universities as opposed to getting a job immediately is great for the following reasons:
    1- It teaches a person dedication and hard work.
    2- It's a social journey during which you build actual social skills with adults and where you get to know all kinds of people from all walks of life and thus have a broader point of view.
    3- It teaches a person analytical skills they need to manage their own personal lives and get a decent job if they bothered to get a decent degree.
    4- Most importantly, it allows a person to indulge themselves in the awesome thing that is learning for 3 full years, and even more if you keep your skills sharp.
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    Mediocre universities in the UK are actually better than most universities in the world. Take London Met for example; it's utterly awful, yet is around the top 500 in the world for employment, academic rating and research.
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    (Original post by oShahpo)
    No, I am going to Imperial. I personally don't see how dedicating three years of your life to such a great cause as educating oneself could ever be a bad thing, specially when you don't have to pay the debt back unless you benefit from your education. I also do not rely on anecdotal evidence. I know 3 people who are now doing PhDs at Oxford, having done their BScs at Coventry, and Royal Holloway. It depends on each individual. Also, a lot of the people I know who went to not-so-good unis have benefited from their degrees in their own ways, either personally or socially.

    The main purpose of university is education, not getting you a job. As long as a university is doing its job in providing the education it promised, no one should complain.

    Going to not-so-great universities as opposed to getting a job immediately is great for the following reasons:
    1- It teaches a person dedication and hard work.
    2- It's a social journey during which you build actual social skills with adults and where you get to know all kinds of people from all walks of life and thus have a broader point of view.
    3- It teaches a person analytical skills they need to manage their own personal lives and get a decent job if they bothered to get a decent degree.
    4- Most importantly, it allows a person to indulge themselves in the awesome thing that is learning for 3 full years, and even more if you keep your skills sharp.
    That's a nice romantic image you have about those going to university. The truth is many students who don't do well at A-levels, go to university to party or because they're indoctrinated to believe university, no matter how atrocious it is, is the gateway to success.

    And taxpayers are paying for those tuition fees, many of whom who don't have degrees, so it's totally unfair for Mr Watson, who's a hard working cleaner, to pay for Kevin's degree in Lady Gaga studies from a polytechnic. Bravo to those 3 students then, if what you're saying is true, they're both in a top 50 uni anyway according to the complete university guide so it's irrelevant to my proposal.

    I really couldn't give a rats ass if you're getting a degree for some kind of social awakening or some BS. I am a taxpayer and I don't want to pay for your degree in Lesbian Pole-dancing.

    Those numbered points you mentioned can be achieved through apprenticeships without a £27,000 debt. Stop romanticising education, you go to Imperial so you don't have to worry about the burdens of ordinary people.




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    (Original post by DraculaMihawk)
    That's a nice romantic image you have about those going to university. The truth is many students who don't do well at A-levels, go to university to party or because they're indoctrinated to believe university, no matter how atrocious it is, is the gateway to success.

    And taxpayers are paying for those tuition fees, many of whom who don't have degrees, so it's totally unfair for Mr Watson, who's a hard working cleaner, to pay for Kevin's degree in Lady Gaga studies from a polytechnic. Bravo to those 3 students then, if what you're saying is true, they're both in a top 50 uni anyway according to the complete university guide so it's irrelevant to my proposal.

    I really couldn't give a rats ass if you're getting a degree for some kind of social awakening or some BS. I am a taxpayer and I don't want to pay for your degree in Lesbian Pole-dancing.

    Those numbered points you mentioned can be achieved through apprenticeships without a £27,000 debt. Stop romanticising education, you go to Imperial so you don't have to worry about the burdens of ordinary people.

    Another point I should have made is that your university is a pretty good indicator of your work ethic, so it is good for employers as it allows them to cherry pick the ones they want.



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    You do have a point, but it's not validated as I said unless there are some statistics that show that the net income is negative, and that those students with such degree would not have done better by going to university than if they didn't.
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    (Original post by oShahpo)
    You do have a point, but it's not validated as I said unless there are some statistics that show that the net income is negative, and that those students with such degree would not have done better by going to university than if they didn't.
    So in other words you don't have an argument so you're going to play the statistics card? There's no validation to suggest going to a low ranked university to study a Philosophy of Harry Potter course is better than doing a legal apprenticeship to becoming a lawyer... But if we use common sense we know the answer right? It's empirical. It's why our government is trying to have more students study STEM, so people from lower ranked universities don't study nonsense like Media Studies. Inferences buddy, even though you're good looking, I'm not going to go trawling through the web to find statistical evidence for you when we have common sense.


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    (Original post by Strawberry68)
    Last time I checked education was a human right.
    I love these types of arguments:

    <assert something is a human right>
    <job done>
 
 
 
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