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The Guardian is such an underrated newspaper Watch

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    (Original post by jake4198)
    Why do you assume that there's an underlying right-wing bias in the press?

    Left wing
    - The Guardian.
    - The Independent.
    - The Mirror.

    Centre
    - The Times.

    Right wing
    - The Telegraph.
    - The Daily Mail.
    - The Express.
    The Sun is very right wing. The times is centre right really. The independent endorsed the Conservatives at the last election.

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The Sun is very right wing. The times is centre right really. The independent endorsed the Conservatives at the last election.

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    The Sun? A newspaper that supported Labour in 1997, 2001 and 2005? If the Sun was very right wing, it wouldn't have supported Labour awhile back and it wouldn't have endorsed the Tories in the last election. The Sun - and Murdoch in general - likes to support whichever party is likely to get into power.

    The Times and The Independent didn't endorse the Conservatives; they endorsed a Conservative/ Liberal Democrat coalition.
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    (Original post by jake4198)
    Why do you assume that there's an underlying right-wing bias in the press?

    Left wing
    - The Guardian.
    - The Independent.
    - The Mirror.

    Centre
    - The Times.

    Right wing
    - The Telegraph.
    - The Daily Mail.
    - The Express.
    Firstly, The Times isn't centre. It's not as far right as The Telegraph or The Daily Mail but it most certainly is right-wing. Secondly, you need to consider the circulation of these newspapers. The circulations for The Sun, The Daily Mail and the Telegraph are 1.8m, 1.6m and 0.5m respectively. The circulations for The Guardian, The Independent and The Mirror are 0.16m, 0.06m and 0.8m respectively. In terms of readership, the (largely Murdoch-owned) right-wing press absolutely dominates the UK readership so there definitely is a right-wing bias if you consider what people are actually reading.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    Firstly, The Times isn't centre. It's not as far right as The Telegraph or The Daily Mail but it most certainly is right-wing. Secondly, you need to consider the circulation of these newspapers. The circulations for The Sun, The Daily Mail and the Telegraph are 1.8m, 1.6m and 0.5m respectively. The circulations for The Guardian, The Independent and The Mirror are 0.16m, 0.06m and 0.8m respectively. In terms of readership, the (largely Murdoch-owned) right-wing press absolutely dominates the UK readership so there definitely is a right-wing bias if you consider what people are actually reading.
    You are manipulating the data and you know you are.

    Newspaper circulation - as in physical distribution - does not provide an accurate representation of a newspapers popularity because the internet - especially with the younger generation - has meant that the number of online readers has increased dramatically.

    In terms of readership, both online and otherwise, is equally distributed among the political spectrum. According to the NRS, the most popular newspaper by net readership were:

    1) The Daily Mail. (Right-wing, Tory)
    2) The Daily Mirror. (Left-wing, Labour)
    3) The Telegraph. (Right-wing, Tory)
    4) The Guardian. (Left-wing, Labour)

    Incidentally, the Sun are sixth.

    Both the Times and the Independent did not support the Conservatives in the 2015 General Election. They supported the continuation of the Conservative/ Liberal Democrat coalition - and yes, there is a difference. The Times is generally seen as a centrist newspaper.

    http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/nrs-da...readers-month/
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    (Original post by jake4198)
    You are manipulating the data and you know you are.

    Newspaper circulation - as in physical distribution - does not provide an accurate representation of a newspapers popularity because the internet - especially with the younger generation - has meant that the number of online readers has increased dramatically.

    In terms of readership, both online and otherwise, is equally distributed among the political spectrum. According to the NRS, the most popular newspaper by net readership were:

    1) The Daily Mail. (Right-wing, Tory)
    2) The Daily Mirror. (Left-wing, Labour)
    3) The Telegraph. (Right-wing, Tory)
    4) The Guardian. (Left-wing, Labour)

    Incidentally, the Sun are sixth.

    Both the Times and the Independent did not support the Conservatives in the 2015 General Election. They supported the continuation of the Conservative/ Liberal Democrat coalition - and yes, there is a difference. The Times is generally seen as a centrist newspaper.

    http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/nrs-da...readers-month/
    If you're claiming that newspaper readership is a bad metric to use then online readership is just as bad because it takes into account international readership. The Guardian for instance has a very large online readership in the US, so it's really not very helpful when looking at readership in the UK. And even if you take these statistics at face value and sum up the left and right wing press, there's still a dominance by the right wing.

    And if you're going to argue that The Times isn't a right-wing newspaper because it didn't officially support The Conservatives in the last election then I'd highly recommend you actually pick up a copy of The Times and read it because it's blatantly right-wing. The Times is not "generally seen" as a centrist newspaper, you're the only person who actually appears to be believing this (either you don't read The Times, or you're very confused about where the political centre lies).
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    (Original post by Iridocyclitis)
    The Guardian is so underrated - it is a progressive newspaper with quality journalism and thoughtful commentary; it does not peddle hate, but promotes tolerant values. I also find their investigative journalism to be excellent.

    I really don't get why their circulation is so low.

    We need more of the Guardian - a paper with quality journalism and progressive, tolerant values - and less of the right-wing press! Agree?
    im underrated
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    If you're claiming that newspaper readership is a bad metric to use then online readership is just as bad because it takes into account international readership. The Guardian for instance has a very large online readership in the US, so it's really not very helpful when looking at readership in the UK. And even if you take these statistics at face value and sum up the left and right wing press, there's still a dominance by the right wing.

    And if you're going to argue that The Times isn't a right-wing newspaper because it didn't officially support The Conservatives in the last election then I'd highly recommend you actually pick up a copy of The Times and read it because it's blatantly right-wing. The Times is not "generally seen" as a centrist newspaper, you're the only person who actually appears to be believing this (either you don't read The Times, or you're very confused about where the political centre lies).
    If you had actually taken a look at the source I provided, you may have fathomed the data collected to deduce net readership was taken from UK readers - and so international readership was discarded as part of the study's final data.

    Even if more people did decide to buy and read newspapers associated with the right, you cannot claim an innate bias because there are alternatives for people to buy should they not want to be fed a narrative with which they disagree. If more people find right wing newspapers more gratifying, then that's their decision and a normal aspect of living in a functioning and capitalist democracy. As I said in my earlier posts, I'm not a progressive by the left's interpretation of the word, but I do read left-leaning newspapers and I do also believe it's important for people to not be indoctrinated through an echo-chamber.

    If you're calling the Times "blatantly right wing", then at least provide some evidence to support such an accusation because it seems as though you're making unfounded conclusions.
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    (Original post by RF_PineMarten)
    You could say exactly the same about pretty much all right wing newspapers too. Don't pretend that only left wing papers have biases and propaganda and pseudo intellectuals.

    The Guardian isn't perfect but most of the time they're pretty good. Much better than right wing propaganda like the Daily Mail who don't even know what journalistic standards mean.
    I never said anything about the Daily Mail. The Daily mail is **** as well, but everyone knows it's ****. Most of their articles are satire, and no one takes it seriously. I personally read the Telegraph.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The Evening Standard is most certainly not centre left. It recently endorsed Zachary Goldsmith.
    The BBC is not centre left either. It bugs me how both the right and left think the BBC is biased against them. That's probably a good indicator that it is generally balanced. It leans centre left on some issues, centre right on others.

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    The Evening Standard's opinion pieces regularly espouse views that fit a left-wing agenda. The BBC is most certainly center-left. I cannot think of a single bias it has which is particularly different to The Guardian's.
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    (Original post by jake4198)
    The Sun? A newspaper that supported Labour in 1997, 2001 and 2005? If the Sun was very right wing, it wouldn't have supported Labour awhile back and it wouldn't have endorsed the Tories in the last election. The Sun - and Murdoch in general - likes to support whichever party is likely to get into power.

    The Times and The Independent didn't endorse the Conservatives; they endorsed a Conservative/ Liberal Democrat coalition.
    Perhaps 'very' was too strong. I admit that. But the Sun and Rupert Murdoch are certainly right wing. Yes they supported Labour in those elections but it says quite a lot that Labour had to move substantially right wing economically for the Sun to back them. (eg lower taxation, more privatisation, more pro business, Mandelson saying he was 'intensely relaxed' about people becoming 'filthy rich') etc.

    Yes you are correct that the Sun likes to back a winner. But it has to at least generally support what that 'winner' believes in. Could you seriously imagine the Sun supporting Jeremy Corbyn or Caroline Lucas if it looked like they were going to win? Yes they backed Labour, but only when Labour had moved to the right and the tories at that time were divided and unelectable regardless of their beliefs. There is also the fact that in the run up to the last election when all the polls and experts were predicting a very close election, the Sun unreservedly came out in support of the Conservatives.

    The Sun's viewpoints are certainly right wing. They generally favour lower taxation, they want less spent on welfare, they generally favour privatisation, they have a negative view of immigration, they think the public sector is too big, they are very nationalistic etc etc. I'm not saying that there is anything inherently wrong with that, but they are right wing positions, which the Sun holds and just because it backed the Labour party when it shifted to the right during a time when the tories were incredibly divided does not mean it isn't a right wing paper.


    As for the Times and independent, if you support a tory-lib dem coalition, you are endorsing having the conservatives in government. The Coalition was generally centre right. Endorsing that is a centre right position. If they wanted to be centrist, they could have just endorsed the Lib Dems like the Guardian did in 2010.

    National Newspaper endorsements at the 2015 election

    Daily Express: UKIP
    Daily Mail: Conservatives
    Daily Mirror: Labour
    Daily Telegraph: Conservatives
    Financial Times: Conservative led coalition
    The Guardian: Labour
    The Independent: Lib Dem + Conservative coalition
    Metro: Conservatives
    Morning Star: Labour
    The Sun: Conservatives
    The Times: Conservative and Lib Dem coalition


    National Magazines

    Economist: Conservative led coalition
    Spectator: Conservatives
    New Statesman: Labour

    English Regional Newspapers
    City AM; Conservatives
    Express&Star: None
    Liverpool Echo: Labour
    London Evening Standard: Conservatives
    Manchester Evening News: None
    Southern Daily Echo: Conservatives
    Yorkshire Post: Conservative and Lib Dem coalition.


    With regards to National newspapers and magazines, there were five endorsements of just the tories and four endorsements of a Conservative led coalition. There was also one endorsement of UKIP. That makes ten endorsements for either right wing (just tory or UKIP) or centre right (Tory and Lib Dem coalitions).

    Conversely there were only four national endorsements of Labour, a left wing option.

    In terms of regional papers, there were three endorsements of just the tories, one of the tories and lib dem coalition and one for Labour.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    The Evening Standard's opinion pieces regularly espouse views that fit a left-wing agenda. The BBC is most certainly center-left. I cannot think of a single bias it has which is particularly different to The Guardian's.
    The Evening Standard backed the tories at the last election and backed Zac Goldsmith for mayor. Research found that they printed almost twice as many positive stories about Zac as they did about Sadiq.

    The Evening Standard is most certainly a conservative party supporting newspaper.

    Again, both the right and left think the BBC is biased against them. That to me makes it clear that they are in fact pretty balanced. Note, as KimKallstrom said, balanced does not mean impartial.

    You are beginning to sound like a conspiracy theorist, especially if you think that a paper which has backed the conservatives so solidy is suddenly centre left.
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    because its complete *******s...
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The Evening Standard backed the tories at the last election and backed Zac Goldsmith for mayor. Research found that they printed almost twice as many positive stories about Zac as they did about Sadiq.

    The Evening Standard is most certainly a conservative party supporting newspaper.

    Again, both the right and left think the BBC is biased against them. That to me makes it clear that they are in fact pretty balanced. Note, as KimKallstrom said, balanced does not mean impartial.

    You are beginning to sound like a conspiracy theorist, especially if you think that a paper which has backed the conservatives so solidy is suddenly centre left.
    The Evening Standard regularly has opinion pieces that suit a so-called left-wing agenda. I read one where a woman complained that the iPhone 6 plus was sexist because it was too big for women's hands. I read another where a journalist moaned about James Bond as if it was a misogynistic and racist product of the Nazis. Check out the opinion pieces any day of the week and you'll likely find something on there that could be right out of Comment is Free.

    Name one issue that BBC News differs with The Guardian on. Please try.

    As for the "conspiracy theory" comment, what a pathetic attempt to ostracise me. Try and stick to the actual argument.
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    indy100 is a lot worse
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    The Evening Standard regularly has opinion pieces that suit a so-called left-wing agenda. I read one where a woman complained that the iPhone 6 plus was sexist because it was too big for women's hands. I read another where a journalist moaned about James Bond as if it was a misogynistic and racist product of the Nazis. Check out the opinion pieces any day of the week and you'll likely find something on there that could be right out of Comment is Free.

    Name one issue that BBC News differs with The Guardian on. Please try.

    As for the "conspiracy theory" comment, what a pathetic attempt to ostracise me. Try and stick to the actual argument.
    The Evening Standard has backed the conservatives and conservative candidates for years and years. As recently as May it came out in full support for Zac Goldsmith.

    Quite how you think a conservative supporting paper is left wing really amazes me. Unless you think the Conservatives are centre left?
    Please link me to some of these so called 'centre left articles'.


    The BBC doesn't produce obvious opinion pieces in the same way that the guardian does so it's hard to compare. With the Guardian, it depends who's writing the piece. It could be a corbynite or a staunch blairite.

    Also, yesterday you were slating the remain camp for being so called 'left' despite the fact it was lead by a Conservative Prime Minister, backed by 2/3 of the Conservative cabinet and about 2/3 of the Conservative Parliamentary party. Unless they are all the 'so called left'?
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    The Guardian is my paper of choice, but that doesn't mean that I agree with everything in it.
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    A few years ago i'd have rated it as on par with the Telegraph, Times and Independent however in recent years it's become the London mouthpiece spouting about diversity, safe spaces and generally putting towing to the social justice warriors.

    So in terms of quality i'd agree that it's not bad but the extremity of views today have meant that i purchase the Times or Telegraph almost every occasion.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The Evening Standard has backed the conservatives and conservative candidates for years and years. As recently as May it came out in full support for Zac Goldsmith.

    Quite how you think a conservative supporting paper is left wing really amazes me. Unless you think the Conservatives are centre left?
    Please link me to some of these so called 'centre left articles'.
    Do you remember at the start when I said "The Evening Standard is supposed to be centre-right but it feels very centre-left these days", or when I said "The Evening Standard's opinion pieces regularly espouse views that fit a left-wing agenda.", or in my last comment, when I said "The Evening Standard regularly has opinion pieces that suit a so-called left-wing agenda". I am well aware that the Evening Standard, on the surface, is a Tory paper, and always traditionally has been, but the point I am making is that recently I have noticed that certain pieces, specifically opinion pieces such as those which I described in my previous comment, have sounded very centre-left, and I think it is increasingly going that way. Do you want articles to prove it? These are just some that I found from briefly looking at their Comment section:

    "Dan Jones: Bogus logic is no reason to revive grammar schools": http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/co...-a3346666.html

    Articles complaining about the gender pay gap, a very centre-left cause against something that most economists agree doesn't exist: http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/co...-a3340081.html
    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/the10...-a3338971.html

    "Justine Thornton QC: Why Brexit poses a serious threat to the health of our children" (sure, half the Tories supported staying, but this level of hysteria definitely sounds like something from the centre-left): http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/co...-a3337941.html


    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The BBC doesn't produce obvious opinion pieces in the same way that the guardian does so it's hard to compare. With the Guardian, it depends who's writing the piece. It could be a corbynite or a staunch blairite.
    The BBC, like The Guardian, is clearly not a big fan of Corbyn. It also does produce fairly obvious opinion pieces. On many of their news stories they will routinely have a following section which is effectively an opinion piece by one of their journalists. These I have found to be generally against Corbyn, supporting Sadiq Khan, dead against Trump, supportive of Hillary, against Brexit, and always siding with the so-called left on social issues.

    Sorry, I just remembered why I don't usually respond to you; you are always incredibly disingenuous. Bye.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    A few years ago i'd have rated it as on par with the Telegraph, Times and Independent however in recent years it's become the London mouthpiece spouting about diversity, safe spaces and generally putting towing to the social justice warriors.

    So in terms of quality i'd agree that it's not bad but the extremity of views today have meant that i purchase the Times or Telegraph almost every occasion.
    I've started reading the economist. Although I certainly do not agree with everything it says, it certainly seems more informative and better at backing up its arguments than the others.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Sorry, I just remembered why I don't usually respond to you; you are always incredibly disingenuous. Bye.
    Well that was rather mature wasn't it?
    You were criticising me for making a personal attack and have now done so yourself. Hypocrticial much?

    As for Grammar schools, that is certainly not simply a left v right issue, with many prominent right wingers, opposing them. George Osbourne, David Cameron, Nicky Morgan and Michael Gove etc are all far from left wing yet all oppose grammar schools.


    And Brexit again is not a left v right issue. In fact it was the centrists and soft centre-right who were by far and away the biggest advocates of remain. George Osborne threatened a brexit budget, is he centre left? David Cameron was talking about a world war, is he centre left?
    You seem to be ridiculously claiming that anyone who disagrees with you is left wing, whereas many people in the centre and the centre right disagree with you just as much. It just seems an opportunistic attempt to attack the left on your part.

    Brexit is not a right v left issue. Again as KK said, if you are very much of either (eg Tony Benn or Dan Hanaan) you will oppose it.

    You still haven't responded to my point about how you can possibly call a campaign led and 2/3 backed by a Conservative Prime Minister, cabinet and parliamentary party a campaign of the 'so called left'.

    Please explain that rather than delving into a rather pathetic personal insult. It's a shame you've gone for the 'i've been proved wrong so instead of admitting it i'm going to attack you personally and leave the conversation'.
 
 
 
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