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Chances of an election... watch

  • View Poll Results: When will the election occur?
    This year
    6
    17.14%
    Early 2008 (as was originally speculated)
    20
    57.14%
    2010 (the latest legal date to hold the election)
    6
    17.14%
    Other...
    3
    8.57%

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    (Original post by DanGrover)
    To be fair mate, you chastised the Lib Dems for not being "liberal" enough before berating the public for not knowing about Marxism.
    They aren't liberal enough. There is no real left wing/liberal option anymore, hence the original statement. And the sad thing is that even if there was, the brainwashed masses would vote against logic.
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    (Original post by punktopia)
    They aren't liberal enough. There is no real left wing/liberal option anymore, hence the original statement. And the sad thing is that even if there was, the brainwashed masses would vote against logic.
    That was what I was pointing out. I don't see how you can berate the public for their lack of specified politic, ideological knowledge whilst pidgeon-holing "liberalism" with "the left" - two universally opposite ideologies. If you wish to combine the two - ie, social democracy or democratic socialism, then Lib Dem are, frankly, bang on. But as it stands, with your combining of the phrases, I don't know if you mean you want the LibDems (or whoever) to be more free market (liberal) or more centralised (lefty) etc.
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    (Original post by DanGrover)
    That was what I was pointing out. I don't see how you can berate the public for their lack of specified politic, ideological knowledge whilst pidgeon-holing "liberalism" with "the left" - two universally opposite ideologies. If you wish to combine the two - ie, social democracy or democratic socialism, then Lib Dem are, frankly, bang on. But as it stands, with your combining of the phrases, I don't know if you mean you want the LibDems (or whoever) to be more free market (liberal) or more centralised (lefty) etc.
    The fact is that (of the three in a position to take power) Lib Dems are the most left wing party and also the most liberal party. However, they're neither left wing or liberal enough. I'm not saying that those two things are the same, I'm just saying they don't fulfil either objective.
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    Something my padre always used to pointed out.

    when ever they start digging up the roads, or you see an increased police pressence, they are sure signs of "electioneering", pumping money into the economy (providing work to the core of the country, the people that build and maintain it) secondly, its spending money on public services....

    that said, driving round hammersmith today, and there is nothing but road works at the moment....

    so hopefully spring time election, as the Tories are in a mess, and Libs well, are just useless....and Gordon is feeling like the smug ****** that he is.

    but yeh, sorry for jumping in....back to whatever you were on about.
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    (Original post by punktopia)
    The fact is that (of the three in a position to take power) Lib Dems are the most left wing party and also the most liberal party. However, they're neither left wing or liberal enough. I'm not saying that those two things are the same, I'm just saying they don't fulfil either objective.
    what

    thats because they canbt fufil both

    you van't be liberal and left wing. It;s lik being chaljk and cheese.
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    (Original post by DanGrover)
    what

    thats because they canbt fufil both

    you van't be liberal and left wing. It;s lik being chaljk and cheese.
    Did you read the last post? :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by DanGrover)
    what

    thats because they canbt fufil both

    you van't be liberal and left wing. It;s lik being chaljk and cheese.
    Perhaps it would be an unfair value judgement on my behalf, yet I believe that any sample of an 'average' electorate will reveal a very small % of ideological, tribal voting and a great deal of pragmatism, and voting trends accordingly.

    It is endemic of a society reaching a level where the social inequality gap is much less obvious, intellectual debate is more diluted and politics is seen 'a vote for nothing' by any other name.

    Even if you are tribally 'left wing' or 'liberal' then you'll still vote pragmatically in today's political environment. There are still vestiges of voter expectation whereby people will refuse to vote tory simply because they are tory (vice versa for any other party). Meanwhile there is a considerable, floating protest vote which latches onto radical political opinion.

    There's only no real third option with the LibDems simply because of the belief in the wasted vote; we expect a two party race, so we follow our feet and make it so.
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    Okay, i'm considerably less drunk now.

    (Original post by punkywunky)
    Did you read the last post?
    Yes. See below for a slightly more constructive critique of your post than what I said last night.

    (Original post by Catsmeat)
    Perhaps it would be an unfair value judgement on my behalf, yet I believe that any sample of an 'average' electorate will reveal a very small % of ideological, tribal voting and a great deal of pragmatism, and voting trends accordingly.
    I agree, with the exception of the Tory shires and Labour north inner cities.

    It is endemic of a society reaching a level where the social inequality gap is much less obvious, intellectual debate is more diluted and politics is seen 'a vote for nothing' by any other name.
    I agree.

    Even if you are tribally 'left wing' or 'liberal' then you'll still vote pragmatically in today's political environment. There are still vestiges of voter expectation whereby people will refuse to vote tory simply because they are tory (vice versa for any other party). Meanwhile there is a considerable, floating protest vote which latches onto radical political opinion.
    I agree. But that was my only point - that you can't be both liberal and left wing. You can be neither, but you can't be both. As I said above, when punk said he wanted Lib Dem to be more left wing/liberal, does he mean more free market, as the latter suggest, or more centralised as the former suggests? I don't understand how you can want it to be both, because as I so eloquently put it last night, "It;s lik being chaljk and cheese." They're irreconcilable.

    There's only no real third option with the LibDems simply because of the belief in the wasted vote; we expect a two party race, so we follow our feet and make it so.
    I agree. I'm not entirely sure what I said to promt your post.
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    To extend your analogy though, chalk and cheese (or chaljk, if you so wish) are often forced together in an attempt to 'fish' for the disparate elements of the electorate.

    Certainly it would be a false conclusion to suggest that to be Liberal is to be Left Wing, much in the same manner as you can be conservative but Liberal. It's a heck of a lot more three dimensional than simple Left/Centre/Right, but we all know that anyway, clever chaps that we are.

    Personally, I always hesitate for a long time at a polling booth trying to reconcile my expectations, doubts and what is ultimately "best for the country". Whilst I would vindicate a sense of self-righteous, Leftism by voting for, say, the SWP, would it be anything more than a wasted x where it wpuld be much better pragmatically deployed? One party state? It'd certainly make the voting easier. Anyway, representative democracy is overrated and facile.
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    (Original post by Catsmeat)
    To extend your analogy though, chalk and cheese (or chaljk, if you so wish) are often forced together in an attempt to 'fish' for the disparate elements of the electorate.

    Certainly it would be a false conclusion to suggest that to be Liberal is to be Left Wing, much in the same manner as you can be conservative but Liberal. It's a heck of a lot more three dimensional than simple Left/Centre/Right, but we all know that anyway, clever chaps that we are.
    Quite right - but as I said above, assuming that when you put together Liberalism and the left, you get democratic socialism - well, that's exactly what the Lib Dem are, and given it is the very epitome of centralist middle-ground, it's very difficult to be an extreme, polarised social democrat. It's the third way etc etc. I don't see how you can put together liberalism and the left any other way, as anything any more 'extreme' than social-democracy would lean too far towards one and effectively eliminate the other.

    As such, I still can't really see how you can want a party like the lib-dems to be "more liberal/left".

    Personally, I always hesitate for a long time at a polling booth trying to reconcile my expectations, doubts and what is ultimately "best for the country". Whilst I would vindicate a sense of self-righteous, Leftism by voting for, say, the SWP, would it be anything more than a wasted x where it wpuld be much better pragmatically deployed? One party state? It'd certainly make the voting easier. Anyway, representative democracy is overrated and facile.
    Alas, i've never voted. But I agree.
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    You're exactly right. Democratic Socialism is a fine balance and so to 'radicalise' one branch of it, certain promises and beliefs, then you essentially move into an entirely different opinion.

    May I ask why you have not voted? Age, choice...

    It's not as dramatic as you'd think it should be; when I first voted I was quite naive, thinking, 'Ah, my first action in Representative Democracy' but now I feel embittered and uncatered for (seeing as every election I've voted in, the constituency has only ever fielded parties which I would not wholeheartedly support).
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    Well, i'm 19 now, though I was 17 (and 11 months or so - darned it) last general election. The only election we've had otherwise are council ones, and frankly any opinion I might have had on that wouldn't have been founded on knowledge, as I have no idea who my local council are, what they believe, and likewise for any of the other options. It would have been an entirely devoid of thoughtfulness, and as such I didn't see my voting as contributing to a better government in any way. So I abstained.
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    (Original post by DanGrover)
    Well, i'm 19 now, though I was 17 (and 11 months or so - darned it) last general election. The only election we've had otherwise are council ones, and frankly any opinion I might have had on that wouldn't have been founded on knowledge, as I have no idea who my local council are, what they believe, and likewise for any of the other options. It would have been an entirely devoid of thoughtfulness, and as such I didn't see my voting as contributing to a better government in any way. So I abstained.
    Ah, I see. I've only ever voted in Local Elections (two), both of which I also saw little formative point. However, I did realise that if you want to get something done you have to do it yourself, although I couldn't quite imagine a fringe party candidate for my old authority.

    Where I live now the Council is dominated (and I mean dominated) by Conservatives, so again my vote will be absolutely meaningless. Gah. Please, please bring in PR.
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    I'd say my vote will be (seeing as i'm not of age yet) worth more in Council Elections than in General Elections. Local elections are closer, so my vote will have more of an impact
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    (Original post by shaf90)
    I'd say my vote will be (seeing as i'm not of age yet) worth more in Council Elections than in General Elections. Local elections are closer, so my vote will have more of an impact
    Will it? It'll have more of a chance in affecting the outcome, but when the battleground upon which the election is fought is based around weekly (or NOT weekly!!) bin collections, is it really more of an impact?
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    (Original post by DanGrover)
    Will it? It'll have more of a chance in affecting the outcome, but when the battleground upon which the election is fought is based around weekly (or NOT weekly!!) bin collections, is it really more of an impact?
    :laugh:

    Tis a shame though that so much power is centralised when it would be more effective to be governed locally.
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    (Original post by DanGrover)
    Will it? It'll have more of a chance in affecting the outcome, but when the battleground upon which the election is fought is based around weekly (or NOT weekly!!) bin collections, is it really more of an impact?
    S'ppose your right. Now you've mentioned it, what DOES the council do, apart from in our case bicker about random things
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    (Original post by shaf90)
    I'd say my vote will be (seeing as i'm not of age yet) worth more in Council Elections than in General Elections. Local elections are closer, so my vote will have more of an impact
    It depends on how tribal your local council and the electorate is. I'd argue that if you have a 'Tribal' seat, it'll stay that way.

    I'm all for starting up a few 'Rotten Boroughs' anyway, which might certainly increase the level of fringe party candidates in Parliament. (of course it might seem a bit archaic :rolleyes:).
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    (Original post by shaf90)
    S'ppose your right. Now you've mentioned it, what DOES the council do, apart from in our case bicker about random things
    Have a look on their website. ;yes;

    Mine work out my student loan, for one.
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    (Original post by Socrates)
    :laugh:

    Tis a shame though that so much power is centralised when it would be more effective to be governed locally.
    Unitil the system for local government is reformed we should be taking as much power away from these unaccountable busy bodies as we can.
 
 
 
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