Breast feeding compared to smoking. Watch

avalanche
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#41
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(Original post by Fluent in Lies)
Some people are allergic to breast milk, so it's not always best :cool:
I didn't know anyone could be allergic to breast milk, cows milk yes.
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Fluent in Lies
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#42
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(Original post by avalanche)
I didn't know anyone could be allergic to breast milk, cows milk yes.
It's the contents of the breastmilk, which is quite often from trace of cows milk that the mother's drunk I think yes.
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avalanche
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#43
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(Original post by Fluent in Lies)
It's the contents of the breastmilk, which is quite often from trace of cows milk that the mother's drunk I think yes.
Ahh ok
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Renal
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#44
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(Original post by avalanche)
How effective are these controls though, there are probably lots of variables we don't even know about. The effects of long term breast feeding are always going to be impossible to prove surely. Just imagine if for some imaginary reason you took an adult who was formula fed to court to find out if he would have been any healthier if he had been breast fed im sure they wouldn't have enough decent evidence to confirm that he would have been. Ok thats stupid but you know what im getting at lol.
Please believe me when I tell you, yet again, that you have seriously misunderstood the nature, the purpose and the methodology of clinical trials.

Fair point I surpose, but it's psych at Herts, I suppose they have to do something.

Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it's not valid. We went over this in my last post.
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Sunofnight
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#45
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(Original post by Renal)
Please believe me when I tell you, yet again, that you have seriously misunderstood the nature, the purpose and the methodology of clinical trials.
Whats the nature, purpose and methodology of clinical trials?

You really believe that adult problems are partly due to not being breast fed as a baby?
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Renal
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#46
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(Original post by Sunofnight)
Whats the nature, purpose and methodology of clinical trials?
Depends on the type of trial, depth and academic rigidity, controls, blinding and elimination of variables. It's a variable field, some trials - particularly the 'low-brow' academia - like the first one you referenced have less scientific rigidity than the latter. Understanding them and interpreting them is a science in itself, admittedly I'm not the best at it, but neither is the mass media.

You really believe that adult problems are partly due to not being breast fed as a baby?
Maybe. I won't dismiss it out of hand because I don't like the idea and struggle to understand some of the concepts. The evidence, as a whole rather than as individual studies, suggests, quite strongly, that breast feeding is a causative or preventative factor for some conditions - that means, because almost everything in medicine is multifactorial, that breastfeeding, or lack therof, can be partly responsible for some adult problems in some people.
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flump
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#47
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(Original post by Renal)
Depends on the type of trial, depth and academic rigidity, controls, blinding and elimination of variables. It's a variable field, some trials - particularly the 'low-brow' academia - like the first one you referenced have less scientific rigidity than the latter. Understanding them and interpreting them is a science in itself, admittedly I'm not the best at it, but neither is the mass media.

Maybe. I won't dismiss it out of hand because I don't like the idea and struggle to understand some of the concepts. The evidence, as a whole rather than as individual studies, suggests, quite strongly, that breast feeding is a causative or preventative factor for some conditions - that means, because almost everything in medicine is multifactorial, that breastfeeding, or lack therof, can be partly responsible for some adult problems in some people.
Given that breastfeeding is:
  1. Cheaper
  2. More convenient
  3. Has real benefits for the mother

and is probably better for the baby why wouldn't you?
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Elles
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#48
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Although in the interests of balance - what I can remember of the 'cons' list for the purposes of my paediatric exams:

- Not all women are able to - e.g. premature babies (without suckling reflex) / mastitis etc.
- Risk of vertical transmission of infection (notably HIV) or drug metabolites
- Exclusion of fathers/dependence on mother
- Lower % of Vitamin K (though that in breast milk is more easily absorbed)


Probably more relevant on a global/nationwide level than individuals though. & ways of coping with a few e.g. expression pumps, Vitamin K at birth.
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Goddess Fury
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#49
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(Original post by PinkMobilePhone)
Yes, babies are at a lower risk of catching stuff if they are breastfed rather than formula fed....BUT they are at a lower risk of catching stuff if they are formula fed rather than if they are in a smoky environment.

So generally :

smoke = terrible
formula = neutral
breastmilk = great
Sums it up right. Smoking around a baby is sick.
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flump
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(Original post by Elles)
Although in the interests of balance - what I can remember of the 'cons' list for the purposes of my paediatric exams:

- Not all women are able to - e.g. premature babies (without suckling reflex) / mastitis etc.
- Risk of vertical transmission of infection (notably HIV) or drug metabolites
- Exclusion of fathers/dependence on mother
- Lower % of Vitamin K (though that in breast milk is more easily absorbed)
Obviously with something like HIV its not worth the risk but for other points.

Not all women able to - I didn't have premature baby but I know people who have and have successfully managed to breastfeed, I had mastitis and it was hard to continue but doable and worth it in the end.
Exclusion of father/dependance on mother - to be honest you can express milk and father can do the feed and giving the occasional formula feed, once breastfeeding is established, isn't a problem but remember the other side of this is the mother baby bond is strong and this is positive.
Vitamin K - my baby needed extra vitamin K due to traumatic delivery and he was given it - didn't cause any disruption to breast feeding.

Truthfully with the exception of infection breastfeeding is surely a better option economically, for mothers health and probably for the babys.

When I was having my son my doctor asked me if I intended to breastfeed, I said I hoped so if I could. He laughed and said he thought it was so funny that English women sort of expect it to be a problem. He is from India and he said the vast majority of Indian women manage to feed their babies and he thought the difference was they expected to be able to.

I don't think bottle feeding is child abuse or anything but there are so many advantages to breastfeeding, the first week or two can be difficult but then it is great and if it is probably healthier for the baby then that is a bonus.
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Renal
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#51
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(Original post by flump)
Not all women able to - I...
Not all women are able to.

Vitamin K - my baby needed extra vitamin K due to traumatic delivery and he was given it - didn't cause any disruption to breast feeding.
Elles meant that there is less Vit K in breast milk than in formula, hense a Vit K injection is often given to breast fed babies.
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flump
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#52
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(Original post by Renal)
Not all women are able to.

Elles meant that there is less Vit K in breast milk than in formula, hense a Vit K injection is often given to breast fed babies.
No not all women can but as my doctor said it seems as if most women can if they expect to.

Yes my son had the vitamin K injection but I understood this was mainly due to traumatic delivery because they said it could cause problems, bleeding I think but I have to confess after forceps delivery I wasn't taking in too much information, but he had the injection which apparently resolves the issue.

So you can sum up my view as most women could breastfeed and it has lots of advantages, obviously some women hate the idea and so they formula feed but for everyone else breastfeeding is worth trying because of the advantages. I managed to continue when things were difficult in the second week as my health visitor was really supportive and I am sorry that not everyone gets the right help at the right time.
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Elles
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#53
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Vitamin K is used by the body to produce clotting factors to reduce bleeding, adults normally have stores in their liver but babies don't so the injection/an oral supplement seems to be offered routinely, although it might be especially important in situations where early bleeding is more likely (such as in your experience after forceps). Renal has explained - breast milk has less Vitamin K than supplemented formulas.

Perhaps you replied before my edit to give a bit more context?

Probably more relevant on a global/nationwide level than individuals though. & ways of coping with a few e.g. expression pumps, Vitamin K at birth.
Some of those potential problems will be irrelevant to most or perhaps surmountable (for reasons we both gave) but they are recognized objective disadvantages* beyond just an 'eww' or 'not for me' factor, that even the very 'Breast is best! ' medical establishment seem to recognize (hence my need to have memorized them for exam purposes! ) so I think it's important they're not overlooked.


* The 'not everyone can' idea is interesting. When I did O&G/Paeds I came across a few cases where women were having real difficulty - e.g. prem babies with increasingly low blood sugars that just didn't seem to have the energy/interest to suckle and mothers feeling like failures because the recommendation was another form of nutrition ASAP; mastitis that needs tissue removal - breast feeding afterwards wasn't recommended.
There was definitely an integrated clinic for problems at one of the hospitals that seemed quite successful with more typical problems though.
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flump
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#54
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(Original post by Elles)
Vitamin K is used by the body to produce clotting factors to reduce bleeding, adults normally have stores in their liver but babies don't so the injection/an oral supplement seems to be offered routinely, although it might be especially important in situations where early bleeding is more likely (such as in your experience after forceps). Renal has explained - breast milk has less Vitamin K than supplemented formulas.

Perhaps you replied before my edit to give a bit more context?



Some of those potential problems will be irrelevant to most or perhaps surmountable (for reasons we both gave) but they are recognized objective disadvantages* beyond just an 'eww' or 'not for me' factor, that even the very 'Breast is best! ' medical establishment seem to recognize (hence my need to have memorized them) so I think it's important they're not overlooked.


* The 'not everyone can' idea is interesting. When I did O&G/Paeds I came across a few cases where women were having real difficulty - e.g. prem babies with increasingly low blood sugars that just didn't seem to have the energy/interest to suckle and mothers feeling like failures because the recommendation was another form of nutrition ASAP; mastitis that needs tissue removal - breast feeding afterwards wasn't recommended.
There was definitely an integrated clinic for problems at one of the hospitals that seemed quite successful with more typical problems though.
The vitamin K injection with my son was done straight after birth and was definitely linked to traumatic delivery, I think my daughter had it orally but not immediately.

I actually did give up breastfeeding with my son as I was feeling it was just too difficult I was weaning him onto formula and my milk was decreasing and just as he was pretty well totally on formula my health visitor encouraged me to keep trying so went into reverse and started to reduce formula and increase breastfeeds and it was successful. One reason I decided to give it another go was the sheer slog of cleaning and sterilising bottles and preparing feeds and needing to be organised enough to take them with you and needing to get home if you hadn't got bottle with you. Also getting up in the night to heat a bottle rather than just picking baby up and feeding it, so much easier.

I had mastitis at one point but did not need tissue removal, I felt like I had the most awful flu I had ever had and obviously horrendous breast pain and was on antibiotics for two or three weeks. I am greatful for the help and support I had which enabled me to feed them both, one for six month the other for 12 months plus. I think its a shame that success rates are so low with breastfeeding, I was in a low rate group being a teenage mom from the inner city - not your typical NCT middle class mom. Personally I think the advantages aren't pushed enough, we are always told, "It's best for baby" which is great but the other advantages aren't talked about much and really are selling points. I am not too proud to admit that the financial advantage mattered to me, I know people say eating properly costs more when you are breastfeeding but most of us have a little surplus weight after childbirth and malnutrition isn't a great problem in England as far as I know. You will obviously have more information about that so I will be interested to hear what you think.

Edit, I forgot to say in relation to prem babies, a mom I went to ante natal with had a prem baby and she expressed milk and the baby was bottle fed her milk. The funny thing was she breast fed for six months, i.e. the baby was fed breast milk, but the baby never actually took the milk from the breast, she just never managed to get Rosie to switch from the bottle which seemed really complicated but the baby got all the benefits of breast milk which I guess is important for a poorly prem baby.

2nd edit Just a quick question, after tissue removal for mastitis is it just that breast that there are problems with? I just wondered as I understand that women can successfuly breastfeed after mastectomy as one breast can produce enough milk. Don't know if its true just what I heard.
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horrorboy
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If a study shows that the population are healthier if breast fed does this apply to individuals? Development in the womb and its environment has got to be like 100 times more important in determining health than diet during the first months of life, the womb is the foundation of health yet people on here blame everything on not being breast fed.
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Huw Davies
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#56
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(Original post by horrorboy)
If a study shows that the population are healthier if breast fed does this apply to individuals?
It applies to at least some individuals - I am not sure in this case whether it applies to one, many, most or all but would veer towards the stronger end based on the size of the effect in large samples.

Development in the womb and its environment has got to be like 100 times more important in determining health than diet during the first months of life, the womb is the foundation of health yet people on here blame everything on not being breast fed.
Yes, but can you identify some easy interventions to improve intra-uterine health? There's the obvious avoiding of smoking\alcohol\thalidomine but these are pretty widely adhered-to these days. Beyond that I struggle.

I don't see anyone blaming "everything" on not breastfeeding. Could you expand?
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Renal
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(Original post by Huw Davies)
There's the obvious avoiding of smoking\alcohol\thalidomine but these are pretty widely adhered-to these days. Beyond that I struggle.
You'd think so wouldn't you.
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horrorboy
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(Original post by Huw Davies)
It applies to at least some individuals - I am not sure in this case whether it applies to one, many, most or all but would veer towards the stronger end based on the size of the effect in large samples.



Yes, but can you identify some easy interventions to improve intra-uterine health? There's the obvious avoiding of smoking\alcohol\thalidomine but these are pretty widely adhered-to these days. Beyond that I struggle.

I don't see anyone blaming "everything" on not breastfeeding. Could you expand?
There was someone on here blaming his depression on not being breast fed ages ago, experts partly blame lower IQ, obesity, leukemia, heart disease, asthma..all sorts on lack of breast feeding. There are studies titled 'breastfeeding may be key to success'. How pathetic is this?

As for health in the womb I don't see as many studies saying 'eating fruit while pregnant' has long term health advantages for baby. Yet you only have to type in google 'breast feeding' and 100's of studies come up.
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Huw Davies
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Maternal nutrition before and during pregnancy.
Scholl TO.

Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, School of Medicine, Stratford, NJ, USA.

In humans, the link between the maternal diet and the outcome of pregnancy is best illustrated by the classic study of wartime famine in Holland. During the famine it is likely that a low food intake reduced the glucose stream from the mother to fetus and gave rise to smaller size at birth. Maternal glucose production is also influenced by the type of carbohydrate in the diet. Even when famine and starvation are not issues, a low dietary glycemic index can alter maternal blood glucose production and the area under the glucose curve, and give rise to reductions in fetal growth and infant weight at birth. Reduced food intake in famine areas would also reduce the concentration of micronutrients in the maternal diet. Two micronutrients (iron and folate) have effects on pregnancy outcome that have been shown with some consistency in pregnant women. Emerging evidence now suggests that use of micronutrient- containing prenatal vitamins before and during pregnancy is associated with reductions in the risk of congenital defects, preterm delivery, low infant birthweight, and preeclampsia.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

Though the focus seems to be on avoiding micronutrient deficiency rather than loading up.

See also: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...RVAbstractPlus
And http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum
Considering the criteria suggested by a number of researchers concerning the number of food portions from each food group that pregnant women should include in their diets, the following guidelines for daily consumption are proposed: 3-4 portions of milk products, 2-3 portions of meat, fish or eggs, and 3 portions of fruit, 4-5 portions of vegetables or greens and 7-8 portions of cereals and legumes (a portion is defined as the amount of food that would be found on an average plateful or the normal units of consumption of a food).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...RVAbstractPlus


I'm not sure whether your point is that the lack of studies suggests a lack of evidence, or a lack of interest in the matter.

Does eating fruit while pregnant have long-term health advantages for baby? How much fruit? More than we recommend for non-pregnant people? Are some fruits better? Would micronutrient supplementation work just as well? Is eating fruit just a proxy for wealth\social class which we know does have long-term health advantages for baby? Does the benefit apply in developing countries?

You seem to have some sort personal animus to breast-feeding or its advocates, as I can't see any other reason for describing the studies as "pathetic". The data is presumably there and may well be accurate. If it's the over-hyped conclusion that you oppose I'm afraid that sort of thing is found in reporting on science on every topic imaginable.
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horrorboy
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I respect your reply but its just the way people go on about it which I think is pathetic, wasn't there evidence that coke could cause cancer? Yet you don't get anti coke groups kids drink it all the time why so much fuss about breast feeding.

And this http ://www.healthonnet.org/News/HSN/601878.html, how on earth can milk you had as a baby make you less or more socially mobile? People make choices in life.
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