Pros and cons of music lessons Watch

Wanderlust
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#41
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Here are the pro's of not having musical lessons.

You'll be less involved with any sort of professional musical community; therefore, you will be able to make ridiculous generalisations about how those who do have lessons somehow lose their ingenuity and originality - and because you're less involved with other players, chances are your skewed world view won't be endangered all that much.

You'll also be able to chat about the structures and limitations of having music lessons without ever actually having had one; after all - you, like when playing guitar - speak solely from the soul. You'll be able to denounce teachers who have been involved with their instrument for a lot longer than you will have - because their 'originality' has been drilled out of them by adhering to strict (and strictly bad) ideas for probably longer than you've been alive.


After all, you will be superior; just on this factor alone. I mean, all the practice those teachers have done to get rid of their mistakes and improve themselves; why didn't they just log on to an online guitar forum and be told that they aren't mistakes - 'its style.' Its all about the emotion. And all those things.

That is why I'm correct in everything I say here - its not due to any out of date music conventions or my knowledge of them; its because its all about the emotion.

What we, as a people, need to do, is forsake all lessons and teachers, and instead log on to our favourite online forums, and reinforce each other in the knowledge that we can't actually learn anything from anyone because we're all self-styled experts who really know everything there is to know about the musical world; and thus declare our independence from that slave system that is 'The Musical Tradition.'

You see, at the beginning; when Music as an art form was being developed - it operated on a 'guru/apprentice' basis which progressively became more complex for ease of learning and sharing.

Well, they clearly got it wrong. I mean, look at all the music thats out there today that you can listen to; its all the same, and you can trace it, through those damned teachers, back to the same point.

Those pesky teachers and their infidel teachings.

Cons of not having lessons:

Chances are, you'll think the above is true.

No special tricks or techniques, just my own personal ways of doing the stuff you do with guitars...

Any techniques. Sweeping technique, fingering techniques, picking techniques, note choices, tapping techniques, finger picking techniques.

Guitar teachers, classical ones at least, will give out unbreakable rules. 1 fret per finger, one string per finger for fingerpicking etc etc. And all that *******s. I don't do that. I change my technique for each part just to whatever I think makes it easiest to execute that particular part. Sure, it might make it harder in the long run since I'm constantly having to drift in and out of weird techniques as opposed to sticking to one set conventional method... but I've learned to live with that and it doesn't restrict my playing as far as I know.

As for my music, I have absolutely nothing. I'm sure you'll dismiss all credibility now, but I don't care. I just don't have the recording equipment at home, nor the money to record elsewhere. I have a few random improvised jams over backing tracks etc, just playing by ear. One of which, I believe, can be found at the TSR Guitar Society, in the very first post.
I would go over this again with you Mush, but your arguments are so inaccurate, inexperienced and - to not skirt around the point in order to be delicate - wrong, that its quite painful.

You didn't make up any of those techniques you listed. They are byproducts of the teacher/student system you're denouncing. You don't know anything about the structure of learning classical guitar -clearly. Your method isn't 'harder in the long run' - its an easier cop-out which results in a lesser challenged system of thinking and playing, thus leading to less versatility and probably less creativity in the long run. No, chances are you don't do any really exotic or weird techniques or switch between them in a manner that would suprise an experienced listener. Yes, it will restrict your playing even though you don't know it.

Deny away - reinforce the limiting belief systems you already have. Be my guest.

Fact is law school makes good law students, engineering school makes good engineers, writing schools make good writers, and music schools make good musicians. Theres an art and science involved in all of them. I haven't been schooled in law - so I don't talk nonsense to those who have and pretend I know more because I'm 'judging from the heart' or some rubbish - I don't see why your opinion should be taken as any less unlearned than mine would be in the metaphor above.
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Jake22
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#42
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(Original post by LostRiot)
I did follow lots of the rules you mention, that's because generally that's the best way to play, so that when it gets tough you can still keep up, there are no good guitarists which do not follow the set rules, sure they bend them, but if you don't stick to them to some degree then the speed of playing you can reach will be severely limited, its the best way to play for a reason, it takes less effort.
Exactly, standard pedagogy is there for a reason: it has been tried,tested and refined for over hundreds of years on some instruments.
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Jake22
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#43
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(Original post by Wanderlust)
Here are the pro's of not having musical lessons.

You'll be less involved with any sort of professional musical community; therefore, you will be able to make ridiculous generalisations about how those who do have lessons somehow lose their ingenuity and originality - and because you're less involved with other players, chances are your skewed world view won't be endangered all that much.

You'll also be able to chat about the structures and limitations of having music lessons without ever actually having had one; after all - you, like when playing guitar - speak solely from the soul. You'll be able to denounce teachers who have been involved with their instrument for a lot longer than you will have - because their 'originality' has been drilled out of them by adhering to strict (and strictly bad) ideas for probably longer than you've been alive.


After all, you will be superior; just on this factor alone. I mean, all the practice those teachers have done to get rid of their mistakes and improve themselves; why didn't they just log on to an online guitar forum and be told that they aren't mistakes - 'its style.' Its all about the emotion. And all those things.

That is why I'm correct in everything I say here - its not due to any out of date music conventions or my knowledge of them; its because its all about the emotion.

What we, as a people, need to do, is forsake all lessons and teachers, and instead log on to our favourite online forums, and reinforce each other in the knowledge that we can't actually learn anything from anyone because we're all self-styled experts who really know everything there is to know about the musical world; and thus declare our independence from that slave system that is 'The Musical Tradition.'

You see, at the beginning; when Music as an art form was being developed - it operated on a 'guru/apprentice' basis which progressively became more complex for ease of learning and sharing.

Well, they clearly got it wrong. I mean, look at all the music thats out there today that you can listen to; its all the same, and you can trace it, through those damned teachers, back to the same point.

Those pesky teachers and their infidel teachings.

Cons of not having lessons:

Chances are, you'll think the above is true.
Excellent post.

One thing I love about people who believe the above is that they go on about 'not wanting to be restricted by conventions and rules' and then proceed to only write song music in standard verse-chorus-verse format for the standard pop ensembles (e.g. bass guitar drums vocals etc.) then chuck in the occaisional non-diatonic basic triad chord (often an unconcious modulation) and then claim it is massive innovation.
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arminvanpite
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#44
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A con of having music lessons is finding two super-pervy piano teachers within three years. Urgh. It makes my skin crawl.
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SunburnedCactus
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#45
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(Original post by bloodredbeat)
A con of having music lessons is finding two super-pervy piano teachers within three years. Urgh. It makes my skin crawl.
Hah, some of the classical instrument teachers back at school were definitely a bit pervy. Especially the woodwind guy. Weirrrrrd.
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arminvanpite
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(Original post by SunburnedCactus)
Hah, some of the classical instrument teachers back at school were definitely a bit pervy. Especially the woodwind guy. Weirrrrrd.
It just so happens that one of the super-pervy piano teachers that I mentioned was actually a teacher at School.
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Metal_Gear
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Lessons don't appeal to me purely because when I was younger and learning the flute, I never enjoyed what I was doing. It was all quite rigid and structured, quite systematic in what I did as well. It was dull, boring and went against the whole reason why I wanted to play it in the first place.

With guitar, I don't plan on having any lessons for that reason.
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LostRiot
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(Original post by Reaper23)
Lessons don't appeal to me purely because when I was younger and learning the flute, I never enjoyed what I was doing. It was all quite rigid and structured, quite systematic in what I did as well. It was dull, boring and went against the whole reason why I wanted to play it in the first place.

With guitar, I don't plan on having any lessons for that reason.
you realise that was almost certainly because you didn't have a very good teacher (or because you hated the flute), how much fun it is will depend largely on how its taught. Although you may think you enjoy teaching yourself more than having lessons, you know that it will mean you're unlikely to achieve as good a standard as if you did.
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Mush
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Why can't people accept that some people just don't react well to formal tuition REGARDLESS of the teacher, REGARDLESS of the instrument?

Jesus Christ.
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Metal_Gear
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(Original post by LostRiot)
you realise that was almost certainly because you didn't have a very good teacher (or because you hated the flute), how much fun it is will depend largely on how its taught. Although you may think you enjoy teaching yourself more than having lessons, you know that it will mean you're unlikely to achieve as good a standard as if you did.
I realise that. If and when I pick up the violin I will probably go for lessons then. With the guitar however, it's just something I want to learn purely as a hobby that I can pick up as and when I feel like it and progress at a casual pace.
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Mush
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AND *******S to anyone who says that you're unlikely to reach a certain standard without a teacher. There's been so many exceptions to that 'rule' that it fails to BE a rule.

*******S to that. Independent learning is JUST as effective if you apply yourself.
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Jake22
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(Original post by Mush)
AND *******S to anyone who says that you're unlikely to reach a certain standard without a teacher. There's been so many exceptions to that 'rule' that it fails to BE a rule.
It depends what the standard is. In the sphere of art music, it is certainly rare for people to get to concert standard without the aid of a teacher.
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Captain Haddock
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Some things can be learnt but not taught. Musical 'personality' and creativity are two of these things, and while I don't believe having a teacher will detract from them, musicians definitely need to be allowed freedom in their playing in order for them to develop. That's why I think it's good to stay away from the overly-ridgid practice routines that some of the more 'traditional' teachers like to set.
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arminvanpite
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(Original post by Jake22)
It depends what the standard is. In the sphere of art music, it is certainly rare for people to get to concert standard without the aid of a teacher.
I disagree with that, and I agree entirely with not only what Mush said in order for you to give that reply, but also with Captain Haddock as far as "musical personality and creativity" goes.
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Jake22
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(Original post by bloodredbeat)
I disagree with that, and I agree entirely with not only what Mush said in order for you to give that reply, but also with Captain Haddock as far as "musical personality and creativity" goes.
Name a concert musician (in the sphere of art music) who hasn't ever had lessons.

Even if you can name one, there aren't many of them. Apart from anything else, realistically, to get to concert standard you have to start off really quite young and when you are that young, it would take rare intelligence to self-teach well enough to make the progress required.
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Jake22
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(Original post by Captain Haddock)
Some things can be learnt but not taught. Musical 'personality' and creativity are two of these things, and while I don't believe having a teacher will detract from them, musicians definitely need to be allowed freedom in their playing in order for them to develop. That's why I think it's good to stay away from the overly-ridgid practice routines that some of the more 'traditional' teachers like to set.
I don't think so at all. A good teacher can teach the student what personality and creativity are and will have the experience and knowledge to draw examples to demonstrate (for example) the same piece played well by two musicians with different musical personalities to give the student an idea.

You can't neccesarily teach someone how to be creative but you can aid them in discovering their own personality and creativeness. Obviously, the more advanced you get, the more you have to rely on yourself for these things but getting to such a level where these things make a difference (i.e. you have the basics down to a reasonable standard) can take a long time i.e. personality and creativity aren't that discernible before the instrumentalist can play in time, with good intonation etc. etc.
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arminvanpite
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(Original post by Jake22)
Name a concert musician (in the sphere of art music) who hasn't ever had lessons.

Even if you can name one, there aren't many of them. Apart from anything else, realistically, to get to concert standard you have to start off really quite young and when you are that young, it would take rare intelligence to self-teach well enough to make the progress required.
As much as you'll probably slate me for this answer, it was actualy the first thing that came to my mind; Danny Jones, a guitarist and vocalist in McFly. He asked for a guitar for his Birthday at a young age, adored Bruce Springsteen and the like, done what he could and persevered. He never had one lesson.

Now please, don't take this into the ways of "0MGZ U IZ A MCFLI FAN" because as much as I like them, I just like good musicians, and that's it. You asked for an example and I got one, I wasn't going to sit here racking my brains trying to think of someone who wasn't the first person that came into my head just because he is a member of a 'boy band'.
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SunburnedCactus
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Concert guitarist =/= Danny Jones

Guitarist who plays concerts = Danny Jones
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Jake22
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(Original post by bloodredbeat)
As much as you'll probably slate me for this answer, it was actualy the first thing that came to my mind; Danny Jones, a guitarist and vocalist in McFly. He asked for a guitar for his Birthday at a young age, adored Bruce Springsteen and the like, done what he could and persevered. He never had one lesson.

Now please, don't take this into the ways of "0MGZ U IZ A MCFLI FAN" because as much as I like them, I just like good musicians, and that's it. You asked for an example and I got one, I wasn't going to sit here racking my brains trying to think of someone who wasn't the first person that came into my head just because he is a member of a 'boy band'.
I said in the sphere of art music.
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arminvanpite
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(Original post by SunburnedCactus)
Concert guitarist =/= Danny Jones

Guitarist who plays concerts = Danny Jones

(Original post by Jake22)
I said in the sphere of art music.

Well excuse me for my mistake and for being in the middle of other things while replying, hence my misreading and lame Danny Jones answer when - having read what was said wrongly - I could have come up with someone much better.

Really though, don't jump down my throat or start to think little of me. It was a genuine mistake.
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