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    special relationship is on the way out anyway, time to embrace Europe more closely, stuff what the jingoist tabloid readers think, they just hold this country back and always have done.
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    I think some of the commentators in this thread read the tabloids a little too much, collingwood, bagration etc

    Britain needs to move forward not try and recreate past glory. We need to move closer to Europe and move away from America who mainly hurts our nation while keeping the few benefits.

    People forget how much money the EU makes us.

    I am for the idea of a federalist Europe and for a European military (specifically technological aspect of military), why buy American planes when we can develop and build our own.
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    (Original post by Caspiantiger)
    I think some of the commentators in this thread read the tabloids a little too much, collingwood, bagration etc
    :rolleyes:


    (Original post by Caspiantiger)
    Britain needs to move forward not try and recreate past glory.
    Noone is trying to recreate "past glory."

    (Original post by Caspiantiger)
    We need to move closer to Europe and move away from America who mainly hurts our nation while keeping the few benefits.
    Wow, good work, you ALSO just described the EU.

    (Original post by Caspiantiger)
    People forget how much money the EU makes us.
    No, people don't know how much money the EU takes from us. We can "make money" with Europe via free trade. We don't need to be part of a political union for that.

    (Original post by Caspiantiger)
    I am for the idea of a federalist Europe
    Great. So move there. Don't force foreign sovereignty on people who don't want it.

    (Original post by Caspiantiger)
    and for a European military (specifically technological aspect of military), why buy American planes when we can develop and build our own.
    ... We don't develop "our own planes", we are part of European multi-national projects. Besides which, U.S. technology is mostly superior to European technology.
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    The problem with the EU is that it is just unbelievably corrupt; there is absolutely no accountability and there seems to be scandal after scandal relating to MEPs of all nationalities.
    This is also a problem with the ECB: as they are not really accountable to anyone, they have been setting interest rates pretty badly.

    There are also political problems associated with many European countries, particularly France and trade union influence on Italy, which make them perhaps less desirable partners than the states.

    Of course, there are many good things about Europe: in actual fact, our politicians have been doing their utmost to integrate more closely with Europe, and this is to be applauded. It is a matter of encouraging good relations with the EU, but just being a little bit cautious about it because the problems of accountability and poor value for money are quite large.


    I think some of the commentators in this thread read the tabloids a little too much, collingwood, bagration etc
    I think with ridiculous statements like:
    "We need to move closer to Europe and move away from America who mainly hurts our nation while keeping the few benefits.

    People forget how much money the EU makes us."
    it is you who needs to leave the tabloids alone.
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    Bagration:

    The EU makes Britain a lot more money than it costs us. The financial gain is huge.

    I am sorry as a British citizen i can say what i like and vote in a way that reflects my views i don't have to leave this country, my views are as worthwhile as yours and in reality a lot more beneficial than yours.

    The only reason America will have superior technology is because we do not fund our technology aswell as America does and we waste our time buying their technology when we should be investing our money into European projects.
    If we invest into European projects then the money from this trickles back into the pockets of the people of Europe and thus back into the government. Its almost like we are not spending money.
    How European governments do not see this i don't know. Perhaps there is some corruption going on.

    Jacket potato please justify your comments. My views are a lot more sophisticated than a tabloid education can provide. Not a single tabloid newspaper is as pro-Europe as i am. So out of curiosity which tabloid has educated me and the way i believe?

    Bagration and collingwood read like the sun newspaper. Next they will be discussing the Christian heritage of Britain.
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    The EU makes Britain a lot more money than it costs us. The financial gain is huge.
    The simple figures show something else. There are political benefits and trade benefits resulting from free-trade (though this isn't necessarily a result of being a member of the EU) which are hard to quantify, but you are simply wrong to suggest that the EU makes more money than it costs.

    The only reason America will have superior technology is because we do not fund our technology aswell as America does and we waste our time buying their technology when we should be investing our money into European projects.
    If we invest into European projects then the money from this trickles back into the pockets of the people of Europe and thus back into the government. Its almost like we are not spending money.
    This is a very bizarre argument.
    Investment in technology tends to be multinational these days. It also, with the obvious exception of the military, tends to be private as well, not a result of government policy.
    Would you also care to explain why money we invest in European projects would come back to Britain?


    How European governments do not see this i don't know. Perhaps there is some corruption going on.
    A suitably ironic statement, I think. As I mentioned above, there is some corruption going on. A hell of a lot of corruption going on. Its in certain sections in the EU.
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    (Original post by Caspiantiger)
    Bagration:

    The EU makes Britain a lot more money than it costs us. The financial gain is huge.
    Shut-up you ignorant fool! You ought to educate yourself a little bit. Provide us with some official figures.

    (Original post by Caspiantiger)
    my views are as worthwhile as yours and in reality a lot more beneficial than yours.
    No, they are not.

    (Original post by Caspiantiger)
    My views are a lot more sophisticated than a tabloid education can provide.
    Haha.

    (Original post by Caspiantiger)
    Not a single tabloid newspaper is as pro-Europe as i am.
    Firstly, you're not pro-European. You are anti-American.

    Secondly, you're right in so far as no tabloid in the UK is as bigoted as you are.
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    Jacket potato i think we can qauntify the benefits of the EU since there was a clear increase in wealth created from Europe when Britain joined the EU comapred to when it existed outside the EU and traded with Europe.

    I am suggesting that a European military division could work on technology projects that would be made for European states and sold to European states and directly challenge American technology.
    It is very simple when we buy from America the money we spend goes to America. When we develop our own technology the money we pay to managers, engineers and the staff involved in the project will go back to them, they will buy houses, buy cars, spend money and this money trickles down into society and back into the taxes. Its almost like not spending money.

    2026 come back when you can formulate an intelligent argument. I am pro-europe its not upto you to decide where my opinions lie.
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    Jacket potato i think we can qauntify the benefits of the EU since there was a clear increase in wealth created from Europe when Britain joined the EU comapred to when it existed outside the EU and traded with Europe.
    There was another tiny insignificant factor: the end of the second world war... of course there was a clear increase in wealth during the early days of the EU, people in Europe were not killing each other.
    Closer integration with the EU as you are advocating does not go hand in hand with trading with Europe: Switzerland has a free-trade agreement with the EU but is not a member.

    I am suggesting that a European military division could work on technology projects that would be made for European states and sold to European states and directly challenge American technology.
    Fair enough, and to some extent this is already happening. However, the military is a pretty small aspect of things. I'm not sure why you want to 'challenge' American technology so much: Britain also has some of the most advanced military tech in the world and exports it.

    It is very simple when we buy from America the money we spend goes to America. When we develop our own technology the money we pay to managers, engineers and the staff involved in the project will go back to them, they will buy houses, buy cars, spend money and this money trickles down into society and back into the taxes. Its almost like not spending money.
    Please explain why investing in Europe and creating jobs in other European countries is preferable to investing in the US and creating jobs in the US: neither creates jobs over here.
    Moreover, trade is a two way street. We buy things from the US, boosting their economy, the US buys stuff from us like financial services, boosting our economy. Its a mutually beneficial relationship. I'm not sure why you want to cut ties with the US, this is not something that would necessarily result from increasing ties with Europe.
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    (Original post by Caspiantiger)
    Bagration:

    The EU makes Britain a lot more money than it costs us. The financial gain is huge.
    Prove it.

    (Original post by Caspiantiger)
    reality a lot more beneficial than yours.
    Prove it.

    (Original post by Caspiantiger)
    If we invest into European projects then the money from this trickles back into the pockets of the people of Europe
    I don't think at all you understand how international trade and finance works.

    (Original post by Caspiantiger)
    and thus back into the government. Its almost like we are not spending money.
    What...? European Governments do very little investing, its mostly European companies.

    (Original post by Caspiantiger)
    How European governments do not see this i don't know.
    Because its not true.

    (Original post by Caspiantiger)
    Jacket potato please justify your comments. My views are a lot more sophisticated than a tabloid education can provide.
    No. They are very basic, lack any understanding of economics, and are never backed up by factual evidence.

    (Original post by Caspiantiger)
    Not a single tabloid newspaper is as pro-Europe as i am.
    There is no causal link between what the tabloids say and what most people believe. All tabloid papers support people being allowed to buy tables, which I also support, that doesn't mean that I get my opinion of that from tabloid papers.

    (Original post by Caspiantiger)
    Bagration and collingwood read like the sun newspaper. Next they will be discussing the Christian heritage of Britain.
    :rolleyes: And you read like PRAVDA. Next you will be discussing gulags.
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    To hell with the EU and the "special relationship" it's all globalist bull****.
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    Jacket potato i think you are desperate to avoid any benefits from the EU. It is clear we benefit from the EU.

    America is the msot powerful nation in the world, ofcourse we should be challenging them and i would love to see Europe as a federal state as the most powerful union in the world.

    Investment in Europe includes investment in the UK, perhaps an engineering firm in Spain may produce the cockpit of a fighter jet but then an Engineering firm in the UK will be designing and manufacturing the wings. Thus creating jobs and further investing into ourselves.

    I am not suggesting that we stop trading with America or ignore America i think we should move away from the concept we have a special relationship with America which i believe hurts us and concentrate on creating stronger ties with the EU. We should continue all the benefits from America while not allowing them to keep us out of Europe or work with them in some form of special relationship.
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    My one real annoyance with our relationship with the US is the extradition treaty we have with them ref: NAtwest 3
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    (Original post by Caspiantiger)
    Jacket potato i think you are desperate to avoid any benefits from the EU. It is clear we benefit from the EU.

    America is the msot powerful nation in the world, ofcourse we should be challenging them and i would love to see Europe as a federal state as the most powerful union in the world.

    Investment in Europe includes investment in the UK, perhaps an engineering firm in Spain may produce the cockpit of a fighter jet but then an Engineering firm in the UK will be designing and manufacturing the wings. Thus creating jobs and further investing into ourselves.

    I am not suggesting that we stop trading with America or ignore America i think we should move away from the concept we have a special relationship with America which i believe hurts us and concentrate on creating stronger ties with the EU. We should continue all the benefits from America while not allowing them to keep us out of Europe or work with them in some form of special relationship.
    Jacket potato i think you are desperate to avoid any benefits from the EU. It is clear we benefit from the EU.
    Despite the fact it costs us billions a year to be in it, loss of soverinty, border control and fishing waters??
    America is the msot powerful nation in the world
    Yeah...and...
    ofcourse we should be challenging them
    why?
    and i would love to see Europe as a federal state as the most powerful union in the world.
    Death to Britannia!!!
    Investment in Europe includes investment in the UK
    Yeah..we get less than half the money back that we put in.
    , perhaps an engineering firm in Spain may produce the cockpit of a fighter jet but then an Engineering firm in the UK will be designing and manufacturing the wings. Thus creating jobs and further investing into ourselves.
    What, you mean like the euro-fighter...what a complete **** up that was!!!
    I am not suggesting that we stop trading with America or ignore America i think we should move away from the concept we have a special relationship with America which i believe hurts us and concentrate on creating stronger ties with the EU. We should continue all the benefits from America while not allowing them to keep us out of Europe or work with them in some form of special relationship
    1.In what way is the America keeping Britain out of the EU?
    2.Why do you want stronger ties with the EU
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    Don't quote me on this, but I read somewhere (possibly on here) that by being in the EU the UK economy makes a loss of £2bn per year or some equally ridiculous figure.
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    (Original post by Officer Dibble)
    Don't quote me on this, but I read somewhere (possibly on here) that by being in the EU the UK economy makes a loss of £2bn per year or some equally ridiculous figure.
    It's more like £7bn
    (EDIT make that between £4.5-£7bn)
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    Jacket potato i think you are desperate to avoid any benefits from the EU. It is clear we benefit from the EU.

    America is the msot powerful nation in the world, ofcourse we should be challenging them and i would love to see Europe as a federal state as the most powerful union in the world.
    I agree that we do benefit from the EU, although I am still a bit concerned about the lack of accountability and corruption associated with many EU institutions.

    I'm not so sure that trying to become a massive federal state is the right way to go though, certainly not at the moment. I'm not sure there is really any point or benefit in massive states these days, its not the best way to achieve economic growth and efficiency, and the age of empires has long gone. There are also significant problems in European politics: the French will not give up ludicrous subsidies given to their farmers, the Italians will not give up their absolutely shocking labour laws that make investment in Italy almost impossible if you actually need to employ anybody

    Investment in Europe includes investment in the UK, perhaps an engineering firm in Spain may produce the cockpit of a fighter jet but then an Engineering firm in the UK will be designing and manufacturing the wings. Thus creating jobs and further investing into ourselves.
    Very true- though this can also happen with America

    I am not suggesting that we stop trading with America or ignore America i think we should move away from the concept we have a special relationship with America which i believe hurts us and concentrate on creating stronger ties with the EU. We should continue all the benefits from America while not allowing them to keep us out of Europe or work with them in some form of special relationship.
    I think this is a very reasonable position to take, especially when you put it this way rather than how you put it at the start of the thread.
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    (Original post by Caspiantiger)
    Jacket potato i think you are desperate to avoid any benefits from the EU. It is clear we benefit from the EU.
    Are you able to back this,or for that matter anything else you have said thus far, up with examples or stats?

    (Original post by Caspiantiger)
    Investment in Europe includes investment in the UK, perhaps an engineering firm in Spain may produce the cockpit of a fighter jet but then an Engineering firm in the UK will be designing and manufacturing the wings. Thus creating jobs and further investing into ourselves.
    Which would most probably be rubbish, prompting other nations to invest in manufacturers, such as the US, for defense.
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    The EU is the most beaucratic government in the world, farm subsidies are ridiculous we spend £1.50 per cow per day in france and then with the left over meat we dump it on 3rd world countries ensuring the price is low and that 3rd world farmers cant make a living out of raising cattle.

    europe didnt even want england in the EU,

    and yes england makes a loss it doesnt take big farm subsidies instead it used to take the so called british rebate which was ment to counter it but tony blair let it weaken
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    (Original post by Goddess Fury)
    It's more like £7bn
    (EDIT make that between £4.5-£7bn)
    Ah thank you. Quite clearly the benefits of the EU are huge :rolleyes:
 
 
 
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