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    (Original post by Neo Con)
    That you think you can negate people who want to blow u up for being not muslim, by your ideas.
    Well the USA that you love so much was built on ideas and ideology, and that created the worlds superpower, it was the work of free-market capitialism and true liberalism which has been ruined by socialism in economics and totalitarianism on a social level.

    I see no reason why the idealism that made it a great country to begin with should now be anandoned, now the need to revert back to the founding father days is greater than ever!

    Anyway, what other aspects of classical liberalism do you disagree with, do you even understand what it is, or what I myself am?
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    (Original post by Ele1340)
    When the Gestapo used these methods, it was classed as torture and unjustified. Why was Mr. Bush doing it any different?
    Because they were the baddies, and we're the goodies. :woo:

    That said - the stress position is hardly torture, and waterboarding, while unpleasant is not exactly on a par with shoving bamboo splinters under fingernails.

    Mr. Bush wasn't doing it personally either, that's just hyperbole.

    (Not that I'm a fan of Bush, nor am I pro-torture. Just putting things in perspective)
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    (Original post by Neo Con)
    He won't have much [freedom] due to his policies. At least I know America is in save hands. Even the democraps have vision on how to protect western civilization
    BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

    I'm a libertarian, freedom is behind every single thing I believe in!
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    (Original post by Neo Con)
    He won't have much due to his policies. At least I know America is in save hands. Even the democraps have vision on how to protect western civilization


    Christ man, I was making fun of the cliched nonsense conservatives say whenever they're losing an argument. I wasn't expecting you to actually agree with it. Ye gods, there goes my faith in humanity.
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    Yes, but only to enemy ‘spies’ (Enemy combatants, but not PoW’s) .And Neo Con is right, most liberals need to get a grip on reality.
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    (Original post by aliphatic)
    Are there any other places like Guantanomo that still exist today?
    The UK detains people without trial for upto 44 days merely on suspicion of being a terrorist, they could well be innocent.

    Now I don't know whether any torture really occurs during this time, but it wouldn't suprise me - though if it happened I assume it wouldn't exactly become public.

    Fight 44 days! :yep:
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    (Original post by tis_me_lord)
    Well the USA that you love so much was built on ideas and ideology, and that created the worlds superpower, it was the work of free-market capitialism and true liberalism which has been ruined by socialism in economics and totalitarianism on a social level.

    I see no reason why the idealism that made it a great country to begin with should now be anandoned, now the need to revert back to the founding father days is greater than ever!

    Anyway, what other aspects of classical liberalism do you disagree with, do you even understand what it is, or what I myself am?
    The preservation of the Union and Constitution was a top priority of the FoundingFathers-9/11 was an attack on that. So depends how you look at it.

    I get the feeling you know more about liberalism. Point is look at the state of France and europe in general where muslims ask for shariya law. That is liberalism for you. Not granting more rights, but hurting the indigenous population.
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    (Original post by Neo Con)
    Yes it can. Stress positions and Waterboarding were used against enemy combatants in Guantamano Bay.

    :rolleyes: she didn't ask " is torture used" she asked can it be justified.
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    Yes, i would be happy to let people do it to people who rape children and such...

    not to extract any information but purely because they deserve it

    =]
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    (Original post by tis_me_lord)
    The UK detains people without trial for upto 44 days merely on suspicion of being a terrorist, they could well be innocent.

    Now I don't know whether any torture really occurs during this time, but it wouldn't suprise me - though if it happened I assume it wouldn't exactly become public.

    Fight 44 days! :yep:
    Forty four days IS a bit long... I don't know how long they can detain other people, such as suspected pedophiles etc. but whenever I watch The Bill (great factual source I know) they always seem to be like 'we have to let him go as there's not enough evidence!' :woo: ... 44 days without evidence is bloody ridiculous if I'm honest.
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    (Original post by FiveFiveSix)
    Because they were the baddies, and we're the goodies. :woo:

    That said - the stress position is hardly torture, and waterboarding, while unpleasant is not exactly on a par with shoving bamboo splinters under fingernails.

    Mr. Bush wasn't doing it personally either, that's just hyperbole.

    (Not that I'm a fan of Bush, nor am I pro-torture. Just putting things in perspective)

    a) who the **** are you to them the badies and you the goodies, when in their eyes, we're the badies and they're the goodies
    b) why the **** are you classifying the americans as "us" we're british, last time i checked.

    sorry for the language but i hate it when people think it's us vs them, when in actual fact it's America Vs them.
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    (Original post by Neo Con)
    Are you on about that Austrian Guy? I can't believe he is just doing to get medical treatment, that's it. He should be tried fairly like in the US and face the death penalty but not torture.
    Are you ****** up?
    For what he did to his daughter he deserves to be tortured everyday of his miserable life till God rids us of him.
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    (Original post by vinsta)
    Are you ****** up?
    For what he did to his daughter he deserves to be tortured everyday of his miserable life till God rids us of him.
    sigh, what he did was awful, but who tf are you to say what he deserves, "let the one who hasen't sinned throw the first stone" and all that.

    You are forgetting what the justice system is there for, to vindicate, protect and maybe rehabilitate.
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    (Original post by Neo Con)
    The preservation of the Union and Constitution was a top priority of the FoundingFathers-9/11 was an attack on that. So depends how you look at it.

    I get the feeling you know more about liberalism. Point is look at the state of France and europe in general where muslims ask for shariya law. That is liberalism for you. Not granting more rights, but hurting the indigenous population.
    Does a threat to the constitution warrant breaking it? I don't think so, once you're willing to break it, you're not allowed to act as though you care about it because you clearly don't.

    You're talking about an entirely different kind of liberal to me. I'd want to uphold my countries laws, obviously - and said laws would be very different to todays, and more different still to shariya which is an abomination.

    MY brand of liberalism would give plenty more rights to people: freedom of speech would be properly valued once again, as well as new rights such as the right to take drugs. You can't just dismiss me as a liberal, when you don't understand what kind of liberal I even am.

    Traditional liberals and modern liberals believe in totally opposite things sometimes: and I'm the former. I believe in freedom, not equality. In freedom over "security" because the only thing that makes me feel secure is freedom from government coercion.
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    (Original post by Bateman)
    :rolleyes: she didn't ask " is torture used" she asked can it be justified.
    Look just because you're from Iran you have hostility towards me

    If the US uses it, it's right ok
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    (Original post by Neo Con)
    Look just because you're from Iran you have hostility towards me

    If the US uses it, it's right ok
    I bet you know even less about Iran than you do about libertarianism, stop talking about things you don't understand.
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    (Original post by Bateman)
    a) who the **** are you to them the badies and you the goodies, when in their eyes, we're the badies and they're the goodies
    b) why the **** are you classifying the americans as "us" we're british, last time i checked.

    sorry for the language but i hate it when people think it's us vs them, when in actual fact it's America Vs them.
    1. They are the baddies because they attacked us, and we are fighting them. I don’t care what they think, they are the enemy.

    2. It is indeed us versus them; we are just as part of the war on terror as the Americans are. And it doesn’t really matter what we think anyway when they see the West in its entire entirety as there enemy, especially the US and the UK.

    Are you Iranian? Just looking at the flag here
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    (Original post by Neo Con)
    Look just because you're from Iran you have hostility towards me

    If the US uses it, it's right ok

    Ah, so you are a parody of extreme American conservatism. Good 'un. :thumbsup:
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    (Original post by tis_me_lord)
    Does a threat to the constitution warrant breaking it? I don't think so, once you're willing to break it, you're not allowed to act as though you care about it because you clearly don't.

    You're talking about an entirely different kind of liberal to me. I'd want to uphold my countries laws, obviously - and said laws would be very different to todays, and more different still to shariya which is an abomination.

    MY brand of liberalism would give plenty more rights to people: freedom of speech would be properly valued once again, as well as new rights such as the right to take drugs. You can't just dismiss me as a liberal, when you don't understand what kind of liberal I even am.

    Traditional liberals and modern liberals believe in totally opposite things sometimes: and I'm the former. I believe in freedom, not equality. In freedom over "security" because the only thing that makes me feel secure is freedom from government coercion.
    Fair enough mate. But that's where we disagree. Even freedom of speech has restrictions for it to be respected. Sorry for dismissing you, I never meant to. It's just I don't agree in your softly approach to protect one's nation. It's no coincidence that extremists and people who want an easy ride in general prefer liberal governments. That in itself says something.

    Saddam was rumoured to have said before the invasion to his friends, that this isn't Clinton it's Bush, we can't just do what we did before. Conservatives care more for innocent people on a deeper level.
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    Josef Fritzl.

    There is no pain that suffices.
 
 
 
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