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    (Original post by J.S.)
    Don't think people take the Dutch tooo seriously, after their 'showing' in the 2002 World Cup (which for them was over even before the year had gotten underway!). I haven't really followed footie of late, when I left it Ajax were pretty useless after having sold almost all their top players.
    Maybe if you look at the Dutch team, you'll see why.

    They are a sleeping giant.
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    The young stars of Ajax will win the CL within the next five years, provided they stay together and aren't snapped up by some European giant. They lack experience but having gained that they will be the real deal.
    AC Milan, for this season my tip. A sound defence combined with Andriy Shevchenko. The man can score any and every day of the week, one of the most potent weapons in European football.
    Real Madrid, not this season. For me their defence is not good enough, if you saw today's game you will have seen Carlos' audacious foul which should have brought a penalty, and besides that intervention the defence were split like a banana. Their attacking power will take them far obviously.
    Chelsea! Now here's a more than capable team! I put a speculative £2 on them to win it at 14-1. Looking good now, their odds have been slashed to half that. Better finishing is all they need to sort it out, they are winning those games the old Chelsea would've slipped up on, which will bring them success in at least one competition they enter this season.
    Not the year for my beloved Man Utd I'm afraid, the loss of Beckham has dented our creativity, and the new arrivals and emerging youths need time to gel and form the champions of Europe next season or after that. Having said that we have a solid defence now, the worry is creating chances. We were lucky against Pana tonight.
    Arsenal: will they get through?

    And to answer the question, right now there's no better than Thierry Henry. But teams win games, not players.
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    (Original post by ZJuwelH)
    The young stars of Ajax will win the CL within the next five years, provided they stay together and aren't snapped up by some European giant. They lack experience but having gained that they will be the real deal.
    AC Milan, for this season my tip. A sound defence combined with Andriy Shevchenko. The man can score any and every day of the week, one of the most potent weapons in European football.
    Real Madrid, not this season. For me their defence is not good enough, if you saw today's game you will have seen Carlos' audacious foul which should have brought a penalty, and besides that intervention the defence were split like a banana. Their attacking power will take them far obviously.
    Chelsea! Now here's a more than capable team! I put a speculative £2 on them to win it at 14-1. Looking good now, their odds have been slashed to half that. Better finishing is all they need to sort it out, they are winning those games the old Chelsea would've slipped up on, which will bring them success in at least one competition they enter this season.
    Not the year for my beloved Man Utd I'm afraid, the loss of Beckham has dented our creativity, and the new arrivals and emerging youths need time to gel and form the champions of Europe next season or after that. Having said that we have a solid defence now, the worry is creating chances. We were lucky against Pana tonight.
    Arsenal: will they get through?

    And to answer the question, right now there's no better than Thierry Henry. But teams win games, not players.

    I see what you're saying, but in footie you can almost never make predictions like that. Even if they stay together for the next 5 years, who knows what will happen. Development in footie, (as with intellectual developmeny) is not always a linear process. Often, people who do not seem as they possess anything particularly impressive come out on top and those that have always looked as though they'd set the world alight disappoint. It's the same in absolutely any field.
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    (Original post by J.S.)
    I see what you're saying, but in footie you can almost never make predictions like that. Even if they stay together for the next 5 years, who knows what will happen. Development in footie, (as with intellectual developmeny) is not always a linear process. Often, people who do not seem as they possess anything particularly impressive come out on top and those that have always looked as though they'd set the world alight disappoint. It's the same in absolutely any field.
    True but those interested in football always make that sort of comment, using "will" to replace "is likely to". I should've used the latter, but such is my belief that the present Ajax could win it in the foreseeable future that I used the word "will". Obviously there are underacheivers and flops, and obviously there are surprise packages. But they are probably in the minority.
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    (Original post by J.S.)
    Don't think people take the Dutch tooo seriously, after their 'showing' in the 2002 World Cup (which for them was over even before the year had gotten underway!). I haven't really followed footie of late, when I left it Ajax were pretty useless after having sold almost all their top players.
    Ajax were in the top 8 sides last season, easily. and if it wasnt for injury we should be again this time.

    do you know any of my boys?
    whether they make it or not, they played together as kids and there is a real family spirit, unlike the Italian teams who are just manafactured. how anyone can support chelsea is beyond me.

    last night Van Basten, Cruijff and Koeman all met up at the game. beautiful.
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    Hmm... well, i do not believe there is a single best player in the world, because players have different roles, perform different tasks for different clubs, and are hard to compare.
    It is easy to list the most 'skillful' players on the pitch, with great control, ball skills, and the eye for goal.
    But few people ever even concider defenders as possible best players of all time, or even goalkeepers, when it is often these who are the key to bettering these so called superstars.
    Yes, Zidane has skill. Yes, Nistelrooy has a great eye for goal. But what about the goalkeepers who stop these players from causing rugbyesque scores each game.
    The likes of Cudicini, Howard, Dudek. These players, although not praised for there performances by these sorts of awards are often the main difference between victory and defeat.
    So instead of a player of the year award, how about a team of the year, where players in each position get equal honour for the role they play.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    Ajax were in the top 8 sides last season, easily. and if it wasnt for injury we should be again this time.

    do you know any of my boys?
    whether they make it or not, they played together as kids and there is a real family spirit, unlike the Italian teams who are just manafactured. how anyone can support chelsea is beyond me.

    last night Van Basten, Cruijff and Koeman all met up at the game. beautiful.
    The problem with the dutch is not at club level. They play well game after game with the same players. Its their inability to play as a team which is their problem, with all the problems between players, and only qualifying for Euro 2004 through the playoffs, shows that there are serious problems in the national game.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    Ajax were in the top 8 sides last season, easily. and if it wasnt for injury we should be again this time.

    do you know any of my boys?
    whether they make it or not, they played together as kids and there is a real family spirit, unlike the Italian teams who are just manafactured. how anyone can support chelsea is beyond me.

    last night Van Basten, Cruijff and Koeman all met up at the game. beautiful.

    When I think of Dutch football, the one word that immediately enters my mind is: disappointment. It's a country that has never won a WC. Even those players, even Van Basten, when it really mattered and when the world was watching in 1990, the campaign and his personal performance was a failure. Also, despite many of the players having been bought up together, etc, the Dutch are more famous for a lack of unity than anything else, i.e. 1996. The only real success was a semi final place in 1998, in addition to the 88 Euro Championships. WC 2002 was no real shock, if any major team was likely to fail to even reach the finals, it just had to be the Netherlands. It's a giant that is no apparent hurry to get up, maybe it has has taken far too many sleeping tablets.
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    (Original post by J.S.)
    When I think of Dutch football, the one word that immediately enters my mind is: disappointment. It's a country that has never won a WC. Even those players, even Van Basten, when it really mattered and when the world was watching in 1990, the campaign and his personal performance was a failure. Also, despite many of the players having been bought up together, etc, the Dutch are more famous for a lack of unity than anything else, i.e. 1996. The only real success was a semi final place in 1998, in addition to the 88 Euro Championships. WC 2002 was no real shock, if any major team was likely to fail to even reach the finals, it just had to be the Netherlands. It's a giant that is no apparent hurry to get up, maybe it has has taken far too many sleeping tablets.
    or the 70s when they were the greatest footballing nation on the planet?
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    or the 70s when they were the greatest footballing nation on the planet?
    How many trophies did they pick up in the seventies?
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    (Original post by Iluvatar)
    How many trophies did they pick up in the seventies?
    they were the best team at the 74 world cup and their club teams dominated european football from the beginning of the decade. they also had the best player of the 70s.
    the 'orange machine' arrived with total football and revolutionised attacking play...apparently.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    they were the best team at the 74 world cup and their club teams dominated european football from the beginning of the decade. they also had the best player of the 70s.
    the 'orange machine' arrived with total football and revolutionised attacking play...apparently.
    Well, as i didn't see the 74 world cup, i wouldn't know.
    But past glories don't make a team good now.
    And since then, they have underachieved, which i dont believe can be disputed.

    And didn't pele play in the 1970 world cup?
    And i would argue that pele was the best player of all time, and many people would agree with me.
    so surely pele was the best player in the 70's?
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    (Original post by Iluvatar)
    Well, as i didn't see the 74 world cup, i wouldn't know.
    But past glories don't make a team good now.
    And since then, they have underachieved, which i dont believe can be disputed.

    And didn't pele play in the 1970 world cup?
    And i would argue that pele was the best player of all time, and many people would agree with me.
    so surely pele was the best player in the 70's?

    Yes, I agree with most of that. The Dutch didn't win anything, although they did lose to two host nations. As for the comment on the best player of the 70's, it's subjective. The most popular choice would be Pele.

    However, as for all time, it was Maradona. To argue that Pele was better than el Diego just makes me laugh! It's utter crap! Pele is just propoganda, more myth than reality. He's only regarded highly by the officials as his image is easier to sell to the media! That's why he topped the 'experts' i.e. the asslickers poll, whereas Maradona won the popular vote. Cannot find any other reason, all the Brazilian sides would have won each of their WC's without him, indeed they did in 1962. Also, his WC career ended in 1970, the game was so damn slow in that era, one could take a nap between each pass!
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    (Original post by J.S.)
    Yes, I agree with most of that. The Dutch didn't win anything, although they did lose to two host nations. As for the comment on the best player of the 70's, it's subjective. The most popular choice would be Pele.

    However, as for all time, it was Maradona. To argue that Pele was better than el Diego just makes me laugh! It's utter crap! Pele is just propoganda, more myth than reality. He's only regarded highly by the officials as his image is easier to sell to the media! That's why he topped the 'experts' i.e. the asslickers poll, whereas Maradona won the popular vote. Cannot find any other reason, all the Brazilian sides would have won each of their WC's without him, indeed they did in 1962. Also, his WC career ended in 1970, the game was so damn slow in that era, one could take a nap between each pass!
    But he was still around, that was the point.
    And there are so many arguments about the best players of all time, so thats why i want to leave it well alone. But pele is considered by most as the best player of all time, so surely, as he played in the seventies, he was the best player in the seventies?!
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    (Original post by Iluvatar)
    But he was still around, that was the point.
    And there are so many arguments about the best players of all time, so thats why i want to leave it well alone. But pele is considered by most as the best player of all time, so surely, as he played in the seventies, he was the best player in the seventies?!

    70's most probably, I don't personally agree, however I would hear out the arguments in support! As for all time, god no!
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    (Original post by J.S.)
    70's most probably, I don't personally agree, however I would hear out the arguments in support! As for all time, god no!
    Well, no. Not all time.
    I personally think football has constantly improved through time, so the best player now is probably the best player of all time.
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    yeah, with the exception of Maradona, as he's by some distance the best of the 'modern era'.
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    (Original post by Iluvatar)
    Well, as i didn't see the 74 world cup, i wouldn't know.
    But past glories don't make a team good now.
    And since then, they have underachieved, which i dont believe can be disputed.

    And didn't pele play in the 1970 world cup?
    And i would argue that pele was the best player of all time, and many people would agree with me.
    so surely pele was the best player in the 70's?
    er, no. cruijff ran the 70s.
    and the point was, dutch football was the best in the world in the 70s.
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    Pele was a great player but slightly overrated. I would say that Maradona (the best) and Cruyff (just) beat Pele.
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    The Future is Orange.
 
 
 
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