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Is being middle class overrated? watch

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    (Original post by Trigger)
    Yeah but you have more of a chance if your parents actually believe in success and living a life working and becoming better rather than lying on your back producing children.
    My parents are both hard-working but my Dad doesn't really care about my education. Maybe because he didn't go to univerisity and so therefore doesn't understand what it means to be academically succesful....I think a keen interest in your child's education is paramount to their aiding their success. He is however, conscious of the pitfalls of society so guides me in that way- it's the lack of a "father figure" or any kind of guidance where a lot of young men go wrong
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    (Original post by jaydoh)

    Without "you" the working classes would have more chance to infiltrate the university and job markets- and the working class personel in the army far outweigh the middle-classes. The average soldiers (who, like I say, outnumber the generals, majors etc) are the backbone of the army who die on the frontline. Ditto to manager point. Without the blue-collar personel the businesses would collapse. And I can think of plenty of entrepenuers that have came from nothing to be multi-millionaires, and in that case class is laregly redundant.

    You're talking rubbish in the last paragraph. Look at the children today who claim to be rich that live of the backs of their parents' income..... these so called middle-classes will inherit everything their parents have, so how do the working-classes inhereit things-you can't inherit something that isn't there! The working classes have to battle tooth and nail for everything in society because they're looked down on by people who think they're a better person than them because they are middle-class (people like you) who adhere by the rigid and archaic principles of class- gone are the days where the middle classes dominate-you're just going to have to live with that.
    Interesting post. What is your definition of class then? What is social class to you?

    You realise that if it wasn't for the middle classes, the majority of lower class financial support would dry up. How would the 'working classes' finance themselves to get to university for example? Where do you think that money actually comes from? Are you aware that the bulk of the taxation systems' income resides in 'middle incomes'? Proportionally, the middle classes finances are actually taxed the hardest.

    With regards to the army, i give you these quotes -

    "Were such men typical of the rank and file? The question is debatable. Many of the recruits for the infantry of the various armies were men of the learned professions, or tradesmen or artisans who had been thrown out of work by economic changes. According to one estimate, only 20 per cent of the rank and file of the British army in the War of Independence was composed of former textile workers, chiefly from depressed areas like Lancashire or the counties of the south-west (Frey, 1981)."



    We have it on the authority ... that 'as things are at the moment, armies must inevitably be composed of the filth of the nation, and everything which is useless and harmful to society (...)' (Saint-Germain, 1779, 200-1).

    With regards to your beliefs on businesses;

    How would the workforce control itself if it was not for white collared businessmen/women with power? You're actually implying the idea that collective ownership works - as we all know, history has proven that to be wrong (RE: The Spainish Civil War.) You say without the blue collared peoples that physically drive businesses, they would collapse. They probably would collapse. But so what? The 'working classes' need an income don't they; as with all classes and indeed individuals within society.

    Inheritance is a reflection of your (families) life earnings. I also take offense at your assumption and generalisation of so called 'middle classed attitudes' towards working classes; you believe that the middle classes look down on the working classes. How very incorrect that is. What you're displaying are elements of jealousy; its stupid to say one class looks down on another class - the truth is there are individuals who happen to be part of a certain class who 'look down' on other classes. This is because of the individual and is not an accurate assumption about an entire class of people.

    And to address your final point -

    ...who adhere by the rigid and archaic principles of class- gone are the days where the middle classes dominate

    The first part of your statement is correct. Although not intentionally correct: the class system in this country is one of the most fluid systems of economic class in the world. With a snap of someones fingers, a families income can be crippled. Equally well, individuals can work their way up the social ladder - thanks to the financial contributions of the middle classes.

    Also, when in history have middle classes dominated? :confused: Are you aware that the 'middle class' is actually a relatively new term used to describe people who financially secure and stable, thanks to booming economies.

    The (bittersweet) truth is, the middle class makes up a huge proportion of the UKs society. The middle classes actually dominate society in the UK. This is evident through the dominant liberal ideas that smother all aspects of society; that is ultimate evidence to suggest that ideas of marxism and/or communism (associated with a working class background) have died out, because in essence, the majority of people are content, or believe they are content.

    The working class have all but died out; what we have now is (predominantly) a dependent class, a (fluid) 'benefit' class, in place of traditional working class families and individuals.

    The true working classes are those in the third world; those who we exploit for cheap goods.
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    I never said classes do not exist, just that they aren't really as important in this day and age as you would like to believe. I guess you just come across as awfully smug at being middleclass. (If you really are anyway :lolwut:)

    And yes historically the lower classes join the army straight at 16 but in the last decade officer intake has become a healthy mix. Although the wage they end up recieveing puts them in the middle class anyway.
    :unsure: I was simply commenting on what they DID. The middle class drive the economy of most capitalist countries. And classes aren't important .. they're just a way of seeing society. You could see society as people with different sized chins, with the biggest being the upper class and the smallest being the lower class if you wanted to. The middle/upper/lower class idea is simply a method of describing different members of society based on wealth.
    I don't understand what you're trying to suggest: that i think they're a pseudo aristocracy with "inalienable rights" or something? :lolwut:
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    (Original post by Lefty Leo)
    Most scientists would suggest that it's a mix of both (intelligence).

    Nurture by a middle class family usually pushes the child to achieve, however.
    Are you suggesting that a working-class family can't push their child just as much or that they just lack the family stability to push their child to achieve as much as their middle-class peers do?
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    lol at all the people who think class is based only on income.
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    (Original post by jaydoh)
    Are you suggesting that a working-class family can't push their child just as much or that they just lack the family stability to push their child to achieve as much as their middle-class peers do?
    Is there anything odd about either of those statements? :unsure:
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    (Original post by x.Katharine.x)
    lol at all the people who think class is based only on income.
    lol at all the people who don't.
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    (Original post by MichaelG)
    Interesting post. What is your definition of class then? What is social class to you?

    You realise that if it wasn't for the middle classes, the majority of lower class financial support would dry up. How would the 'working classes' finance themselves to get to university for example? Where do you think that money actually comes from? Are you aware that the bulk of the taxation systems' income resides in 'middle incomes'? Proportionally, the middle classes finances are actually taxed the hardest.

    With regards to the army, i give you these quotes -

    "Were such men typical of the rank and file? The question is debatable. Many of the recruits for the infantry of the various armies were men of the learned professions, or tradesmen or artisans who had been thrown out of work by economic changes. According to one estimate, only 20 per cent of the rank and file of the British army in the War of Independence was composed of former textile workers, chiefly from depressed areas like Lancashire or the counties of the south-west (Frey, 1981)."



    We have it on the authority ... that 'as things are at the moment, armies must inevitably be composed of the filth of the nation, and everything which is useless and harmful to society (...)' (Saint-Germain, 1779, 200-1).

    With regards to your beliefs on businesses;

    How would the workforce control itself if it was not for white collared businessmen/women with power? You're actually implying the idea that collective ownership works - as we all know, history has proven that to be wrong (RE: The Spainish Civil War.) You say without the blue collared peoples that physically drive businesses, they would collapse. They probably would collapse. But so what? The 'working classes' need an income don't they; as with all classes and indeed individuals within society.

    Inheritance is a reflection of your (families) life earnings. I also take offense at your assumption and generalisation of so called 'middle classed attitudes' towards working classes; you believe that the middle classes look down on the working classes. How very incorrect that is. What you're displaying are elements of jealousy; its stupid to say one class looks down on another class - the truth is there are individuals who happen to be part of a certain class who 'look down' on other classes. This is because of the individual and is not an accurate assumption about an entire class of people.

    And to address your final point -




    The first part of your statement is correct. Although not intentionally correct: the class system in this country is one of the most fluid systems of economic class in the world. With a snap of someones fingers, a families income can be crippled. Equally well, individuals can work their way up the social ladder - thanks to the financial contributions of the middle classes.

    Also, when in history have middle classes dominated? :confused: Are you aware that the 'middle class' is actually a relatively new term used to describe people who financially secure and stable, thanks to booming economies.

    The (bittersweet) truth is, the middle class makes up a huge proportion of the UKs society. The middle classes actually dominate society in the UK. This is evident through the dominant liberal ideas that smother all aspects of society; that is ultimate evidence to suggest that ideas of marxism and/or communism (associated with a working class background) have died out, because in essence, the majority of people are content, or believe they are content.

    The working class have all but died out; what we have now is (predominantly) a dependent class, a (fluid) 'benefit' class, in place of traditional working class families and individuals.

    The true working classes are those in the third world; those who we exploit for cheap goods.
    I agree with almost all of what you say but i must disagree on the terms "working" and "lower" class. You have working classes in LEDCs and not in MEDCs (unless they're factory workers and farmers i guess, but the latter today would be middle class based on income, and even so use machinery mostly anyway :P, but you will always have "lower" classes regardless of where you go .
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    (Original post by MichaelG)
    Interesting post. What is your definition of class then? What is social class to you?

    You realise that if it wasn't for the middle classes, the majority of lower class financial support would dry up. How would the 'working classes' finance themselves to get to university for example? Where do you think that money actually comes from? Are you aware that the bulk of the taxation systems' income resides in 'middle incomes'? Proportionally, the middle classes finances are actually taxed the hardest.

    With regards to the army, i give you these quotes -

    "Were such men typical of the rank and file? The question is debatable. Many of the recruits for the infantry of the various armies were men of the learned professions, or tradesmen or artisans who had been thrown out of work by economic changes. According to one estimate, only 20 per cent of the rank and file of the British army in the War of Independence was composed of former textile workers, chiefly from depressed areas like Lancashire or the counties of the south-west (Frey, 1981)."



    We have it on the authority ... that 'as things are at the moment, armies must inevitably be composed of the filth of the nation, and everything which is useless and harmful to society (...)' (Saint-Germain, 1779, 200-1).

    With regards to your beliefs on businesses;

    How would the workforce control itself if it was not for white collared businessmen/women with power? You're actually implying the idea that collective ownership works - as we all know, history has proven that to be wrong (RE: The Spainish Civil War.) You say without the blue collared peoples that physically drive businesses, they would collapse. They probably would collapse. But so what? The 'working classes' need an income don't they; as with all classes and indeed individuals within society.

    Inheritance is a reflection of your (families) life earnings. I also take offense at your assumption and generalisation of so called 'middle classed attitudes' towards working classes; you believe that the middle classes look down on the working classes. How very incorrect that is. What you're displaying are elements of jealousy; its stupid to say one class looks down on another class - the truth is there are individuals who happen to be part of a certain class who 'look down' on other classes. This is because of the individual and is not an accurate assumption about an entire class of people.

    And to address your final point -




    The first part of your statement is correct. Although not intentionally correct: the class system in this country is one of the most fluid systems of economic class in the world. With a snap of someones fingers, a families income can be crippled. Equally well, individuals can work their way up the social ladder - thanks to the financial contributions of the middle classes.

    Also, when in history have middle classes dominated? :confused: Are you aware that the 'middle class' is actually a relatively new term used to describe people who financially secure and stable, thanks to booming economies.

    The (bittersweet) truth is, the middle class makes up a huge proportion of the UKs society. The middle classes actually dominate society in the UK. This is evident through the dominant liberal ideas that smother all aspects of society; that is ultimate evidence to suggest that ideas of marxism and/or communism (associated with a working class background) have died out, because in essence, the majority of people are content, or believe they are content.

    The working class have all but died out; what we have now is (predominantly) a dependent class, a (fluid) 'benefit' class, in place of traditional working class families and individuals.

    The true working classes are those in the third world; those who we exploit for cheap goods.
    I realise the need for a hierarchy yes, and I realise that middle-class people are important in society, but my point was-so are the working classes. It just annoys me when people disregard the importance of the working people.

    The government funds me to go to university-yes taxes help the government to a certain extent but if I were in power I'd greatly reduce tuition fees etc anyway
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    what kind of a ******* question is that
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    Split into: the bourgeois, and: the guilty.
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    (Original post by Lefty Leo)
    Is there anything odd about either of those statements? :unsure:

    Working class families are often alot more stable than middle class.

    The majority of my middle class friends, have separated parents, or a mother addicted to anti-depressants, and a younger sibling who tries his/her hardest to act like the lower class kids anyway.

    Maybe it is just a stereotype...

    But in my experience working class families i have come across, including mine, are alot stronger. And what more incentive is their for a young kid to do well than starting at the bottom of the pile?
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    (Original post by jaydoh)
    I realise the need for a hierarchy yes, and I realise that middle-class people are important in society, but my point was-so are the working classes. It just annoys me when people disregard the importance of the working people.

    The government funds me to go to university-yes taxes help the government to a certain extent but if I were in power I'd greatly reduce tuition fees etc anyway
    The "working" people aren't particularly useful to a tertiary economy where 20-40% of the GDP is produced by manufacturing (and that too mostly automated manufacturing requiring minimal labour), while the rest is almost all produced by services.

    There's a reason the government wants them to go to university and be educated and not be stuck doing jobs that are much cheaper in a third world country.
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    comfortable middle class is awesome
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Working class families are often alot more stable than middle class.

    The majority of my middle class friends, have separated parents, or a mother addicted to anti-depressants, and a younger sibling who tries his/her hardest to act like the lower class kids anyway.

    Maybe it is just a stereotype...

    But in my experience working class families i have come across, including mine, are alot stronger. And what more incentive is their for a young kid to do well than starting at the bottom of the pile?
    Economically speaking someone who's at the bottom of the pile is far more disincentivized than someone in the middle. You need money to make money.

    Your second point seems too out there for me to comment on and frankly i don't know if there IS a relationship between poverty and familial stability.
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    (Original post by numb3rb0y)
    We're society's dumping ground, really. Too rich to get support, but too poor to stop others getting support from us.

    Go bourgeoisie!
    You're actually bemoaning being rich? Cm'onnnnn.
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Working class families are often alot more stable than middle class.

    The majority of my middle class friends, have separated parents, or a mother addicted to anti-depressants, and a younger sibling who tries his/her hardest to act like the lower class kids anyway.

    Maybe it is just a stereotype...

    But in my experience working class families i have come across, including mine, are alot stronger. And what more incentive is their for a young kid to do well than starting at the bottom of the pile?
    That's based on your personal experience and is not a general representation of wider society. Go to a council estate and see how dysfunctional the families are. Just because yours is stable doesn't mean the rest are.
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    (Original post by jaydoh)
    That's based on your personal experience and is not a general representation of wider society. Go to a council estate and see how dysfunctional the families are. Just because yours is stable doesn't mean the rest are.
    Agreed :yes: .
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    (Original post by jaydoh)
    My parents are both hard-working but my Dad doesn't really care about my education. Maybe because he didn't go to univerisity and so therefore doesn't understand what it means to be academically succesful....I think a keen interest in your child's education is paramount to their aiding their success. He is however, conscious of the pitfalls of society so guides me in that way- it's the lack of a "father figure" or any kind of guidance where a lot of young men go wrong
    I don't really understand what you are trying to say?
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    (Original post by jaydoh)
    I realise the need for a hierarchy yes, and I realise that middle-class people are important in society, but my point was-so are the working classes. It just annoys me when people disregard the importance of the working people.

    The government funds me to go to university-yes taxes help the government to a certain extent but if I were in power I'd greatly reduce tuition fees etc anyway
    I agree too, i personally despise people who look down on anothers class; thats the one of the most sad and infuriating things anyone can do. Nobody here is daring to de-value the work of any social class because all of us put in mammoth efforts into our lives at one point or another.

    The reason there are tuition fees is because the government itself cannot realistically finance to send everyone to university (the Labour parties primary aim in the education system) - so instead of taxing more (a deeply unpopular and economically damaging move since higher taxes restrict growth anyway) they simply make universities a business; ie, we pay to go ourselves. Bit contradictory isnt it? On the one hand the government is encouraging more to go to university, yet on the other, the most financially troubled people simply cannot afford to go, its madness!
 
 
 
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