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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    You're being pedantic and not answering the question.

    How can it be the case that "everyone around them wants them dead" when in actual fact Israel has peace agreements of some sort with most of "around them"?
    And Ukraine and Russia aren't at war. Doesn't stop states funding lovely proxies does it?
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    (Original post by geoking)
    And Ukraine and Russia aren't at war. Doesn't stop states funding lovely proxies does it?
    Which of the states Israel borders is funding Hamas then, according to you?
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Which of the states Israel borders is funding Hamas then, according to you?
    Can't remember the incursion into Lebanon?
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    I bet everyone jumping on the anti-Israel bandwagon isn't aware that the organisation in charge of Gaza is about as anti-Semitic as any Nazi fascist, and what is more, proud of it.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    I bet everyone jumping on the anti-Israel bandwagon isn't aware that the organisation in charge of Gaza is about as anti-Semitic as any Nazi fascist, and what is more, proud of it.
    No one is under any delusions about the ideology of Hamas, being anti-Israeli does not make you a supporter of that ideology either.
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    Now watch all those who fervently supported Israel's month-long massacre and stayed staunchly silent against Israel's numerous attacks aimed at the Palestinians these past couple or so weeks vent their anger at this new attack with their same old tired non-arguments about Muslims/Arabs/terrorism. The Zionists are the ones in power and therefore they are responsible for all the blood that was ever shed since the Balfour Declaration. They are irresponsible and they are provocative beyond belief.
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    Now watch all those who fervently supported Israel's month-long massacre and stayed staunchly silent against Israel's numerous attacks aimed at the Palestinians these past couple or so weeks vent their anger at this new attack with their same old tired non-arguments about Muslims/Arabs/terrorism. The Zionists are the ones in power and therefore all the blood that was ever shed since the Balfour Declaration is on their hands. They are irresponsible and they are provocative beyond belief.
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    (Original post by intheTSRspirit)
    Now watch all those who fervently supported Israel's month-long massacre and stayed staunchly silent against Israel's numerous attacks aimed at the Palestinians these past couple or so weeks vent their anger at this new attack with their same old tired non-arguments about Muslims/Arabs/terrorism. The Zionists are the ones in power and therefore all the blood that was ever shed since the Balfour Declaration is on their hands. They are irresponsible and they are provocative beyond belief.
    What if I wasn't silent and did object to the overreaction of Israel that caused the conflict? Am I allowed to express my disgust that civilians were murdered by people? Because, this was an act of terror, and it was committed by Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians. Evidently, it's not an "old, tired non-argument" if it's a fact.
    And before you accuse me of calling all Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians terrorists, I'm not that idiotic. I've met Muslims from Arabia and Palestine and all over the world, and I don't think any were terrorists. Nonetheless, it was still the M/A/Ps that were responsible for this attack.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    No one is under any delusions about the ideology of Hamas, being anti-Israeli does not make you a supporter of that ideology either.
    Yes but if you understand what Hamas is, you'll understand why it is unfair to judge Israel as if it were the one in the wrong.
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    I see no issue here.

    You want to be a doctor be a doctor and do your job. Once you start mixing your profession with politics then you accept all that comes with it and being barred is just one of them.
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    (Original post by geoking)
    Tell me how you can reduce hundreds of missiles to "some"? :rolleyes:

    Oh and brush up on your history.
    I second that. Israel has had to fight multiple wars simply to ensure its own survival. The middle east is openly anti-Semitic. Anarchism made himself look like an ignoramus.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Yes but if you understand what Hamas is, you'll understand why it is unfair to judge Israel as if it were the one in the wrong.
    I disagree, I understand what Hamas is and still see Israel as the main problem. Hamas didn't emerge from a vacuum, they are the consequence of an oppressed and hopeless peoples. Land grabs, bulldozing homes, barriers, occupation and police and military brutality can only lead in one direction, and that direction is extremism.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    I disagree, I understand what Hamas is and still see Israel as the main problem. Hamas didn't emerge from a vacuum, they are the consequence of an oppressed and hopeless peoples. Land grabs, bulldozing homes, barriers, occupation and police and military brutality can only lead in one direction, and that direction is extremism.
    So why did the jihad exist before Israel existed? Why did the jihad try to destroy Israel as soon as it was created? Why are all the surrounding countries disgustingly unfree as Gaza is? Why did Hamas execute their political opponents? (Who were also the despicable terrorists of Fatah.) Why do Hamas impose barbaric religious law on Gaza? Why is Israel the main problem when it is the only country with a democratic tradition lasting for more than one election, in the middle east? Why is Israel the problem when it is the only country in the middle east which gives freedom to atheists, gays, apostates and dissenters?
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    So why did the jihad exist before Israel existed? Why did the jihad try to destroy Israel as soon as it was created? Why are all the surrounding countries disgustingly unfree as Gaza is? Why did Hamas execute their political opponents? (Who were also the despicable terrorists of Fatah.) Why do Hamas impose barbaric religious law on Gaza? Why is Israel the main problem when it is the only country with a democratic tradition lasting for more than one election, in the middle east? Why is Israel the problem when it is the only country in the middle east which gives freedom to atheists, gays, apostates and dissenters?
    Because to ensure its creation foreign powers had to fracture the entire ME.

    Its like Iran deciding to invade New York and settle some of its oppressed people after suppressing and fracturing the entire US and brewing nationalism and independance in every state.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    So why did the jihad exist before Israel existed?
    Because the Palestinian people saw a third party trying to establish a state on their homes.

    Why did the jihad try to destroy Israel as soon as it was created?
    Is that not a reasonable reaction when someone declares that over half of your country no longer belongs to you? What do you think the UK's reaction would be if that happened to us?

    Why are all the surrounding countries disgustingly unfree as Gaza is?
    Mostly because after the fall of the Muslim expires the west crudely redrew the map of the entire Middle East and then spent the rest of the century installing and proping up brutal totalitarian dictators, with no concern whatsoever for anything other than ensuring they were friendly to Western economic interests.

    Why did Hamas execute their political opponents? (Who were also the despicable terrorists of Fatah.) Why do Hamas impose barbaric religious law on Gaza?
    Because they are an abhorant, extremist group. You're still making the mistake of assuming anti-Israel = pro-Hamas.

    Why is Israel the main problem when it is the only country with a democratic tradition lasting for more than one election, in the middle east? Why is Israel the problem when it is the only country in the middle east which gives freedom to atheists, gays, apostates and dissenters?
    It isn't the main problem, it's one of many problems. It is however a massive problem for peace and stability in the Middle East, it radicalises Muslims around the world, fuels anti-semitism, condemns millions of people to lives of hopelessness and oppression and poverty and danger. A problem that was almost entirely created by the West and more specifically the UK.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    Because the Palestinian people saw a third party trying to establish a state on their homes.
    Right, so you admit it wasn't about "oppression" and "hopelessness". It's an ideology of destruction. The only ones making Gaza oppressed and hopeless are Hamas! (Well, they aren't the only ones. Islamic Jihad and other Islamist supporters do so as well.)

    Is that not a reasonable reaction when someone declares that over half of your country no longer belongs to you? What do you think the UK's reaction would be if that happened to us?
    What country? There wasn't a Palestinian country. It was part of the British empire. Before that, the Ottoman empire.

    Mostly because after the fall of the Muslim expires the west crudely redrew the map of the entire Middle East and then spent the rest of the century installing and proping up brutal totalitarian dictators, with no concern whatsoever for anything other than ensuring they were friendly to Western economic interests.
    That theory doesn't work very well with the evidence. We have the Arab spring, which resulted in dictators being elected. The Islamist Muslim brotherhood in Egypt got elected. Hamas got elected in Gaza, which is essentially an arm of the Muslim brotherhood. The Egyptian people elected to oppress the Egyptian people. In Iraq, you have Sunni fanatics bombing voting stations and Shia mosques. This has nothing to do with colonial borders. Sure, maybe the borders in the middle east could have been drawn a bit better, but come on - that is not the root cause of the lack of freedom. The root cause is a lack of belief in freedom.

    Because they are an abhorant, extremist group. You're still making the mistake of assuming anti-Israel = pro-Hamas.
    If you're against both Israel and Hamas then you're not contributing to the conversation. It's like being against both Britain and Germany during the second world war.

    It isn't the main problem, it's one of many problems. It is however a massive problem for peace and stability in the Middle East, it radicalises Muslims around the world, fuels anti-semitism, condemns millions of people to lives of hopelessness and oppression and poverty and danger. A problem that was almost entirely created by the West and more specifically the UK.
    I would say that you are wrong, and Israel represents hope for the middle east. It represents a free society, where you don't get arrested for voicing an opinion or having a different lifestyle or believing in some strange religion. It represents liberalism, as far as it exists in the middle east. It isn't perfect but it's the only thing we have, and we have to work with what we've got. Denouncing Israel is like denouncing Britain in 1936, while the rest of Europe comes under the grip of fascism with only Britain (and the United States) as its hope for a better future.
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    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Because to ensure its creation foreign powers had to fracture the entire ME.

    Its like Iran deciding to invade New York and settle some of its oppressed people after suppressing and fracturing the entire US and brewing nationalism and independance in every state.
    But the entire middle east was fractured anyway, as a result of the dissolution of the Ottoman empire (which had to happen as the Ottoman empire was evil). This is a very weak argument from you.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    But the entire middle east was fractured anyway, as a result of the dissolution of the Ottoman empire (which had to happen as the Ottoman empire was evil). This is a very weak argument from you.
    What prevents the Caliphate from reviving and kicking off Israel once and for all from the map? (politically)

    Israel was born from terrorism and bloodshed and violence. If the same were used to destroy Israel politically I assure you the ME will once again love freedom. If you object to this then why do you not object to the creation of Israel in pure evil.

    That theory doesn't work very well with the evidence. We have the Arab spring, which resulted in dictators being elected. The Islamist Muslim brotherhood in Egypt got elected. Hamas got elected in Gaza, which is essentially an arm of the Muslim brotherhood. The Egyptian peopleelected to oppress the Egyptian people. In Iraq, you have Sunni fanatics bombing voting stations and Shia mosques. This has nothing to do with colonial borders. Sure, maybe the borders in the middle east could have been drawn a bit better, but come on - that is not the root cause of the lack of freedom. The root cause is a lack of belief in freedom.
    Democracy would always favour the Islamists because theyare the majority. That's why the West is playing double standards here. It is the West that is blocking the ME from democracy and then praising a rogue state for being a beacon of light and a model liberal democracy.
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    If you're against both Israel and Hamas then you're not contributing to the conversation.
    Ridiculous thing to say,

    I'm against Hamas because they don't believe in a two state solution
    I'm against Israel because the higher-ups of Israel don't believe in a two state solution.

    Both has to change their ways but the onus is on the people at power
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    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Ridiculous thing to say,

    I'm against Hamas because they don't believe in a two state solution
    I'm against Israel because the higher-ups of Israel don't believe in a two state solution.

    Both has to change their ways but the onus is on the people at power
    Agree, how people can think only one party is to blame is beyond me.

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