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    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    What prevents the Caliphate from reviving and kicking off Israel once and for all from the map? (politically)
    Nothing except the IDF; that's what the Islamofascists want. That's what Hezbollah and Hamas want. That's why Israel goes to extreme lengths to defend itself.

    Israel was born from terrorism and bloodshed and violence. If the same were used to destroy Israel politically I assure you the ME will once again love freedom. If you object to this then why do you not object to the creation of Israel in pure evil.
    Not true at all - the middle east hates freedom. Israel is the only free part of the middle east, in fact. If Israel were wiped from the map, the state of Palestine would become like the state of Jordan or Oman or Yemen; simply another standard tyranny.

    Who cares how Israel was born. We're talking about today, not 1948. It is a different question whether I would support the creation of Israel in 1948. I'm not saying you are correct by the way; the creation of Israel was a good thing relatively because we now have a democracy that we can work with, and that hopefully the rest of the middle east can learn from if they get their heads out of their Islamist arses.

    Democracy would always favour the Islamists because theyare the majority. That's why the West is playing double standards here. It is the West that is blocking the ME from democracy and then praising a rogue state for being a beacon of light and a model liberal democracy.
    You're saying that democracy is impossible in the middle east, which may be true, and certainly is true in countries like Egypt where a large subsection of the population despise democracy. Let me tell you - voting for a fascist is not democracy.
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    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Ridiculous thing to say,

    I'm against Hamas because they don't believe in a two state solution
    I'm against Israel because the higher-ups of Israel don't believe in a two state solution.

    Both has to change their ways but the onus is on the people at power
    Hamas don't believe in a two state solution because they believe it should all be a tyranny under Islamist control.

    Israel doesn't believe in a two state solution because every time it's offered one, it's had a disgusting intifada in return.

    Israel accepted the original two state solution in 1947. Palestine didn't. That has been the story since 1948.
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    (Original post by Ggmu!)
    Agree, how people can think only one party is to blame is beyond me.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Would you say Britain or Germany was to blame for WWII?
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    The saddest thing about the Israeli's killed by the Palestinians is that the Israel won't stop at killing those Palestinians/family members but more.

    Why does an Israeli person worth 9 Palestinians

    At least 1,185 Israelis and 9,100 Palestinians
    have been killed since September 29, 2000.


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    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show....php?t=2979641
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    you make the silly mistake of assuming there is a correlation between amount of deaths and right / wrong... on the contrary the amount of people who die has no effect on the actual position, particularly when it can be argued that 9x as many people die as a consequence of the 1x who die.

    hypothetical

    there are two governments

    government a has lost 1,000 people it is a secular democracy
    government b has lost 9,000 people it is an aggressive nationalistic state.

    who is wrong?
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    If you are being attacked, you defend yourself. If this means that the attacker suffers more damage than you, it's their fault for striking against you.
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    (Original post by james22)
    If you are being attacked, you defend yourself. If this means that the attacker suffers more damage than you, it's their fault for striking against you.
    its like saying

    a bully in a playground punches someone and does little damage but they get punched back in the nose and it breaks, therefore the bully was right.
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    (Original post by viddy9)
    No, it hasn't. The current President of Palestine, Mahmoud Abbas, fully accepts a two-state solution based on boundaries as defined by international law.

    Netanyahu, on the other hand, and his party, have made it perfectly clear that they do not support a two-state solution.

    Until the Israelis start to abide by international law and accept a two-state solution based upon it, the Palestinians won't agree to their land being stolen in any Israeli "offer".
    The conflict isn't about land though, otherwise we would have seen intifadas against Jordan and Egypt, for example, when they were occupying the West Bank and Gaza, respectively. Only when Israel took the Palestinian land off those countries did we hear about land being "stolen". Israel has historically been the defender, the accommodator, the one to offer peace and a two state solution. In recent years it has hardened, sure, but who can blame them given the stubbornness of its neighbours.

    By the way, the reason Israel rejects the two-state solution based on 1967 borders is because it would mean suicide for Israel. Giving Gaza independence in 2005 resulted in a Hamas takeover, and incessant, bloody wars in the years since. Can you blame Israel for not wanting to make the same mistake with the West Bank?

    That's not the case. Why do many rightwingers have such a bad habit of making false dichotomies, a logical fallacy I term 'Bush-logic'. It's like saying that you have to support the Nazi occupation of France or you have to support all the actions, including those taken against civilians, by the French resistance. Of course you don't - similarly, you can disagree with the Israeli occupation of Palestine as well as some of the actions taken by Hamas.
    It is not like saying that; it is like saying that you can be against both the French resistance and the German occupation of France while simultaneously claiming to be in some way useful to the debate. You can criticise both sides while supporting one, and still be useful. I don't support everything Israel does, for example. Neither do I support everything Britain did during WWII. But I support both of those countries in their respective wars, because both face(d) very similar, repellent enemies.

    In principle I think that Palestine should be an independent country. But only if it is a liberal democracy like Israel (or better). At the moment, giving Palestine independence would result in a standard tyranny. What is the point of that?
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    (Original post by Jgco2chem)
    The saddest thing about the Israeli's killed by the Palestinians is that the Israel won't stop at killing those Palestinians/family members but more.

    Why does an Israeli person worth 9 Palestinians

    At least 1,185 Israelis and 9,100 Palestinians
    have been killed since September 29, 2000.

    Because Israel is better at defending its population than the Palestinians.

    As the old saying goes.

    People without iron dome air defence systems shouldn't fire rockets at those that do, and then complain when they get targeted.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Nothing except the IDF; that's what the Islamofascists want. That's what Hezbollah and Hamas want. That's why Israel goes to extreme lengths to defend itself.
    Tbh that's what the majority of the ME wants. The question is why? Is Israel to blame for bringing the "wrath" on her or has the Arabs got some deeply rooted anti-semitism in their genes?

    Historically the Jews did far better when they lived under Muslim rule than under Christendom. If there existed an extraordinary anti-semitic gene in Muslims, one should wonder why the only Jewish cultural golden age in the Christian era sprang up in Islamic Spain and not anywhere else.


    Not true at all - the middle east hates freedom. Israel is the only free part of the middle east, in fact. If Israel were wiped from the map, the state of Palestine would become like the state of Jordan or Oman or Yemen; simply another standard tyranny.
    They have a different definition of freedom and you shouldn't take that against them. If you claim that democracy is the way forward why do you not desire it for the ME. These tyranies have the backing of the West and that what's keeps them going.

    Who cares how Israel was born. We're talking about today, not 1948. It is a different question whether I would support the creation of Israel in 1948. I'm not saying you are correct by the way; the creation of Israel was a good thing relatively because we now have a democracy that we can work with, and that hopefully the rest of the middle east can learn from if they get their heads out of their Islamist arses.
    Okay, so we can also let Hamas and Hezbollah have their way and slaughter Israel and wipe it off the map. After some time who will care? The Palestinians will no more be oppressed and with Israel gone, the west cannot play its games anymore. The tyrants will fall, and democracy would give the islamists power. They would then have to elect a caliph to rule over all the smaller democracies and then the ME can come back to its rightful place. The genocide of Israel would well be justified by the peace of the entire region.

    Somebody would say then 50 years from now: who cares what happened to Israel? We have peace at last.

    You're saying that democracy is impossible in the middle east, which may be true, and certainly is true in countries like Egypt where a large subsection of the population despise democracy. Let me tell you - voting for a fascist is not democracy.
    Democracy rightfully gave power to the MB. Who are you to judge who is a fascist in Egypt? When he was rightfully elected. Get off your high horse. By couping out a democratically elected govt the enemies of Egypt just gave one more reason for the Islamists to use violence to gain their rightful power rather than through democracy.
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    The only reason that less Israelis have died is because they have an incredible missile defense system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome. The Palestinians are firing just as many rockets, if not more, at Israel, it's just that the rockets never reach.
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    i love how it's only the israeli deaths that the news dains to tell us about
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    I'm not particularly pro-Jew, pro-Israel or pro-Zionist but considering the Jews in Israel are stuck in a country surrounded on all sides by people that hate them and frequently go out of their way to attack them, I think Israel have every right to defend themselves and even attack back.
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    (Original post by Jemner01)
    I'm not particularly pro-Jew, pro-Israel or pro-Zionist but considering the Jews in Israel are stuck in a country surrounded on all sides by people that hate them and frequently go out of their way to attack them, I think Israel have every right to defend themselves and even attack back.
    it's completely the other way round
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    (Original post by hdaindak)
    it's completely the other way round
    Well, I think it's true in both cases actually, but at least Palestine has the entirety of the Middle East and the UN on its side.
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    If you put any other country in the world in Israels position, it would do exactly the same.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Well, I think it's true in both cases actually, but at least Palestine has the entirety of the Middle East and the UN on its side.
    and Israel has America
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    (Original post by viddy9)
    They've been the side which has consistently rejected the international consensus on the two-state solution and have, along with the United States, vetoed any attempt to implement a two state solution at the UN. In January 1976, this pattern of events was in its early stages: a resolution was brought to the UN Security Council. It called for a two-state settlement on the internationally recognized border "with guarantees for the rights of both states to exist in peace and security within secure and recognized borders." Israel refused to attend the session. The resolution was vetoed by the United States. This has continued to the present day.
    Someone's been reading Chomsky I see. This is plainly a massively one-sided version of affairs. First, the Palestinians have also 'consistently' rejected any plans for a two-state solution, beginning as far back as the UN's 1946 Partition Plan.

    Your point about the 1976 UNSC Resolution is disingenuous. It came just 3 years after the Arab-Israeli war; it was brought by Egypt, Jordan, and Syria, who had attacked Israel in said war to reclaim the Sinai and Golan. They lost the war, so tried to get them back under the cover of a UNSC resolution concerning Palestine. Hence the reference in the resolution to a return to the 1960s borders.



    (Original post by viddy9)
    And, Hamas were voted in in free and fair democratic elections, and, after this democratic election, the so-called pro-democracy players: Israel, the United States and co., then proceeded to punish the Palestinian people for voting the wrong way by supporting an attempted coup in the Gaza Strip, which did indeed lead to bloodshed.
    Could the events after those elections, when Hamas went about massacring all Fatah members in the Gaza, perhaps have something to do with that, hmm?

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/...74926320070614

    (Original post by viddy9)
    From the ceasefire agreed upon in 2012 to 2014, Hamas abided by the terms of the ceasefire;
    Too easy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...n_Israel,_2013


    The offer for a two state-solution has been on the table for decades. There's been reticence on both sides, but by far the greatest obstacle is the Palestinians. The will simply not accept any concessions, unlike the Israelis.
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    (Original post by hdaindak)
    i love how it's only the israeli deaths that the news dains to tell us about
    Except it doesn't at all, and the left-wing media (and the BBC) is totally bias towards Palestine.
 
 
 
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