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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV Watch

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    (Original post by hdaindak)
    and Israel has America
    Hmm, but Israel isn't surrounded by America. Palestine is surrounded by the Middle East.
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    (Original post by hdaindak)
    it's completely the other way round
    My world history is poor but I'm pretty sure Jews were given Israel by the UNGA, and that it's surrounded by majority Muslim countries which hate Judaism/Christianity. There's been near constant warfare since because the Palestinians believe Israel is their sacred religious land or somesuch, and hate the Jews even more for living there. Most of Israel's actions have been in their own defence (although Mossad have a reputation for being merciless and using all sorts of non-UN/NATO compliant tactics including kidnapping and torture), although it ultimately leads to the argument over where the line between necessary and necessary defence actually is.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Hmm, but Israel isn't surrounded by America. Palestine is surrounded by the Middle East.
    but America is much more powerful and can supply v powerful weapons to Israel
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    (Original post by Jemner01)
    My world history is poor but I'm pretty sure Jews were given Israel by the UNGA, and that it's surrounded by majority Muslim countries which hate Judaism/Christianity. There's been near constant warfare since because the Palestinians believe Israel is their sacred religious land or somesuch, and hate the Jews even more for living there. Most of Israel's actions have been in their own defence (although Mossad have a reputation for being merciless and using all sorts of non-UN/NATO compliant tactics including kidnapping and torture), although it ultimately leads to the argument over where the line between necessary and necessary defence actually is.
    the palestinians lived there for 100s of years before the israeli's came... i think you'd be pissed off too
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Except it doesn't at all, and the left-wing media (and the BBC) is totally bias towards Palestine.
    left-wing media doesn't have much influence unfortunately
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    (Original post by hdaindak)
    but America is much more powerful and can supply v powerful weapons to Israel
    Saudi Arabia is incredibly powerful and has one of the biggest and most powerful embassies in America. It must be nice to have them on your side.
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    (Original post by hdaindak)
    the palestinians lived there for 100s of years before the israeli's came... i think you'd be pissed off too
    No, I wouldn't, because conquest is conquest. If someone takes your land, it's no longer yours. Waging war because of a history you're not even part of is silly: I wouldn't carry out raids on the English border just because the English took areas of Southern Scotland during the wars of Scottish Independence. The wars waged by my (potential) ancestors have no real relevance to me. Besides, it was the major European powers and the US that decided to give the land to the Jews, and before that the Brits owned it.
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    (Original post by hdaindak)
    left-wing media doesn't have much influence unfortunately
    I think it does. The vast majority of people in this country support Palestine. When those rockets got found in UN schools, the media reported it, but then when apparently that wasn't true, they reported that even more. But then when it turned out it was true, they barely mentioned it.

    They also have failed to bring much attention the fact that many of the civillian deaths have actually been HAMAS operatives in civillian clothes. A breach of UN law, I might add.

    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2...sualty-figures
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    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Tbh that's what the majority of the ME wants. The question is why? Is Israel to blame for bringing the "wrath" on her or has the Arabs got some deeply rooted anti-semitism in their genes?

    Historically the Jews did far better when they lived under Muslim rule than under Christendom. If there existed an extraordinary anti-semitic gene in Muslims, one should wonder why the only Jewish cultural golden age in the Christian era sprang up in Islamic Spain and not anywhere else.
    It's nothing to do with genes, but there is something wrong with Arab culture in that it is seemingly incompatible, in its current form, with liberal democracy, as demonstrated by the Arab spring, Iraq, etc.

    You're comparing Islam with an exceedingly low base line. Christianity spent a good millennium or more persecuting Jews to the highest and most barbaric extent imaginable, ending finally with the holocaust. Liberal democracy was a Western invention, and it's far better than both Islam and Christianity. Christian societies have, for the most part, abandoned Christianity in favour of liberal democracy (sub-Saharan Africa not included), but Islamic societies have yet to do so.

    They have a different definition of freedom and you shouldn't take that against them. If you claim that democracy is the way forward why do you not desire it for the ME. These tyranies have the backing of the West and that what's keeps them going.
    When I talk about "democracy", I mean "liberal democracy". I don't mean "let's all vote for Islamofascism". Believe me I want the middle east to be liberal and democratic - that's why I support Israel, since it is the only middle eastern liberal democracy. As for Western backing, that is only due to economics and realpolitik. Notice that the United States doesn't push for dictators in Europe, because Europe believes in liberal democracy. The United States doesn't have the will power to turn the middle east into Western Europe unless there is something in it for them, and it is easier to work with what you've got - a choice between a disgusting dictator who serves your interests, and a disgusting dictator who doesn't.

    Okay, so we can also let Hamas and Hezbollah have their way and slaughter Israel and wipe it off the map. After some time who will care? The Palestinians will no more be oppressed and with Israel gone, the west cannot play its games anymore. The tyrants will fall, and democracy would give the islamists power. They would then have to elect a caliph to rule over all the smaller democracies and then the ME can come back to its rightful place. The genocide of Israel would well be justified by the peace of the entire region.

    Somebody would say then 50 years from now: who cares what happened to Israel? We have peace at last.
    Hang on, you got something wrong! If Hamas and Hezbollah reach any kind of victory, that is a victory for oppression. That is not freedom! What nonsense you spew. You must have a very strange and inverted definition of what "freedom" means, because to me it means a free society - precisely what Israel's enemies are fighting against.

    Democracy rightfully gave power to the MB. Who are you to judge who is a fascist in Egypt? When he was rightfully elected. Get off your high horse. By couping out a democratically elected govt the enemies of Egypt just gave one more reason for the Islamists to use violence to gain their rightful power rather than through democracy.
    Nonsense. The Muslim Brotherhood oppose liberal values. They oppose democracy. **** the Muslim Brotherhood.

    I don't suppose you'd make the same argument in favour of the fuhrer too? Remember, that piece of filth was "democratically" elected.

    You have zero understanding of what democracy and freedom actually mean.
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    (Original post by Jemner01)
    No, I wouldn't, because conquest is conquest. If someone takes your land, it's no longer yours. Waging war because of a history you're not even part of is silly: I wouldn't carry out raids on the English border just because the English took areas of Southern Scotland during the wars of Scottish Independence. The wars waged by my (potential) ancestors have no real relevance to me. Besides, it was the major European powers and the US that decided to give the land to the Jews, and before that the Brits owned it.
    what that doesn't even make sense- so if someone came to your door with a gun and said that it was now theirs that would be ok would it
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    (Original post by Jemner01)
    No, I wouldn't, because conquest is conquest. If someone takes your land, it's no longer yours. Waging war because of a history you're not even part of is silly: I wouldn't carry out raids on the English border just because the English took areas of Southern Scotland during the wars of Scottish Independence. The wars waged by my (potential) ancestors have no real relevance to me. Besides, it was the major European powers and the US that decided to give the land to the Jews, and before that the Brits owned it.
    and it wasn't their ancestors it's current
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    wait guys

    lets give the Native Americans their land back!

    This justifies Native American terrorism!
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    (Original post by viddy9)
    The offers have to be examined in detail, though, and none of them were acceptable under international law and were simply unjust. They could offer the Palestinians 10cm2 of land, and I'm sure Israeli apologists would proclaim such an offer as "benevolent". They've been the side which has consistently rejected the international consensus on the two-state solution and have, along with the United States, vetoed any attempt to implement a two state solution at the UN. In January 1976, this pattern of events was in its early stages: a resolution was brought to the UN Security Council. It called for a two-state settlement on the internationally recognized border "with guarantees for the rights of both states to exist in peace and security within secure and recognized borders." Israel refused to attend the session. The resolution was vetoed by the United States. This has continued to the present day.
    In principle the Palestinians should have a state, I agree, but what is the point in creating a Palestinian state when (a) it won't end the conflict (Israel faced war from the Palestinians and Arab states from the moment it was created), and (b) the Palestinian state will not be free.

    Israel still exert effective control over Gaza; they haven't yet stopped occupying it. And, Hamas were voted in in free and fair democratic elections, and, after this democratic election, the so-called pro-democracy players: Israel, the United States and co., then proceeded to punish the Palestinian people for voting the wrong way by supporting an attempted coup in the Gaza Strip, which did indeed lead to bloodshed. The Israeli government then initiated Cast Lead, killing more than a thousand innocent Palestinians. Of course, this year, fighting again broke out when Israel bombed and assassinated Hamas officials in the Gaza Strip, leading to a retaliation by Hamas. From the ceasefire agreed upon in 2012 to 2014, Hamas abided by the terms of the ceasefire; Israel did not, making incursions into Gaza and committing acts of violence as well as failing to lift the blockade of Gaza as agreed upon in 2012.

    It really wouldn't lead to suicide for Israel if they actually supported the two-state solution and didn't continue to commit atrocities. We've not yet seen Israel do either, so it remains to be seen what will happen, but peace is certainly conceivable, and at least the Palestinian government does support the two-state solution.
    They stopped occupying Gaza in 2005, at which point the state of the place fell precipitously as it was taken over by a jihadist group.

    If a jihadist, fascist or other totalitarian is voted in, they should be opposed. Who cares that they were voted in? Hitler was voted in. Do you oppose the war on Hitler?

    Why lift the blockade on Gaza when it will result in disgusting terrorist attacks? Hamas needs to be defeated, Gaza needs to be made into a liberal democracy, then the blockade can be lifted and we can all live happily ever after.

    Supporting Hamas, however, is not equivalent to supporting the Palestinian resistance and the end of Israel's brutal occupation of Palestine. One hypothetical proof by contradiction of this is that one could be a pacifist and not support the French resistance either, but still support the liberation of France from the Nazis by peaceful means. Similarly, one could be a pacifist and therefore not support Hamas or any Palestinian resistance activities, but still support the liberation of Palestine from Israel by peaceful means.
    Hamas don't represent "resistance". They represent jihad. The killing of innocent people, for fun, in order to advance the cause of totalitarianism. That is not resistance, and to call it such reduces your credibility as a decent human being.

    If the Palestinian "resistance" was nonviolent, they would have won in 1948, when Israel agreed to live peacefully according to the UN partition plan.

    A standard tyranny? I don't see how the secular party which leads the Palestinian government is 'tyrannical'.
    Mahmoud Abbas agreed to form a unity government with jihadists. Therefore he is not to be trusted. It is as if David Cameron agreed to form a coalition government with the national front, but - somehow - worse.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Would you say Britain or Germany was to blame for WWII?
    You're blindly pro Western, you have no ability to look at things objectively.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by hdaindak)
    what that doesn't even make sense- so if someone came to your door with a gun and said that it was now theirs that would be ok would it
    Conquest on a global scale =/= protected property rights on an individual scale. If you're asking me if I would defend my home the answer is yes (although the ability to defend is severely neutered here in the UK) , but the rhetorical question is loaded none-the-less.

    Isreal was granted to the Jews in 1948. Britain defeated the Ottoman Empire in 1918 and from about 1922/23 Israel and some of the surrounding area was legally British-owned territory. Before that, the Ottomans (Turks) owned it from about 1500 onward. So unless "native" Arabs from pre-1500 are currently fighting against Israeli forced for "their" land, you'll find that it's their ancestors who claim it's rightfully theirs and their ancestors who are attacking the current Jewish democracy in Israel (Jews who didn't even take the land in the first olace- they were granted it).
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    (Original post by hdaindak)
    the palestinians lived there for 100s of years before the israeli's came... i think you'd be pissed off too
    Of course that has been missed by many people and the fact that illegal settlements get denied by Israel and hence they continue to build them then they wonder why nobody really supports them , yet anything Palestine does is oppressed and everyone wonders why ,

    And I agree with jemner01 and that he is right his history is poor

    Pps an eye for an eye is not related to judaism/Israel so op should check facts
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    (Original post by Ggmu!)
    You're blindly pro Western, you have no ability to look at things objectively.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I do admit that the West has committed crimes though.

    Edit: do you seriously believe there isn't a clear, objective answer to the question of whether it was Britain or Germany to blame for WWII?
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Except it doesn't at all, and the left-wing media (and the BBC) is totally bias towards Palestine.
    And pro
    Palestinians complain that the BBC is pro
    Israeli.

    You know you're reporting effectively when you piss off both sides in a news story.
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    (Original post by Jemner01)
    Conquest on a global scale =/= protected property rights on an individual scale. If you're asking me if I would defend my home the answer is yes (although the ability to defend is severely neutered here in the UK) , but the rhetorical question is loaded none-the-less.

    Isreal was granted to the Jews in 1948. Britain defeated the Ottoman Empire in 1918 and from about 1922/23 Israel and some of the surrounding area was legally British-owned territory. Before that, the Ottomans (Turks) owned it from about 1500 onward. So unless "native" Arabs from pre-1500 are currently fighting against Israeli forced for "their" land, you'll find that it's their ancestors who claim it's rightfully theirs and their ancestors who are attacking the current Jewish democracy in Israel (Jews who didn't even take the land in the first olace- they were granted it).
    So why doesn't the people who gave Israel to the 'jews' follow Judaism then if they believe in giving people land ?
    Hypocrisy is rife , if the same people followed religion properly then the world would be in a better place but it seems they are like u -war mongerors .
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    (Original post by james22)
    If you are being attacked, you defend yourself. If this means that the attacker suffers more damage than you, it's their fault for striking against you.
    Does defending oneself mean attacking more innocent people?

    If you hit me will my self defense be justified by attacking your entire family?

    Am I not a hypocrite if I do that?
 
 
 
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